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Unpopular opinion about the ban system

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Codey, Mar 26, 2020.

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Are you in favor of creative bans?

  1. Yes

    15 vote(s)
    46.9%
  2. No

    14 vote(s)
    43.8%
  3. Other (explain)

    3 vote(s)
    9.4%
  1. Codey
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    Codey Well-Known Member

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    Introduction
    I don't make this a feedback thread because I'm pretty certain it would just be moved to the decline box.

    Vote abusers shouldn't be banned
    I am personally not taking a part in vote abusing. I just think permanently banning them is stupid. They're given power that shouldn't be abused. Go figure. Nothing new to me. The thing is that people are given power they don't have the mental strength to deal with to avoid.

    My proposal? (THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE AND SHOULDNT BE TAKEN LITERALLY)
    First warning: Vote ban on all accounts for 1 month. Caught for voting anyway? Automatically move to second warning.
    Second Warning: Vote ban on all accounts for 3 months. Caught for voting anyway? Automatically move to third warning.
    Third Warning: Wipe their entire inventories on every account they have.
    Fourth warning: Remove their characters too
    Fifth Warning: Permanent ban

    Context - Why this proposal?
    I don't believe in the idea of permanent punishment. Most of them are kids, or just stubborn people. Let them learn. After having their accounts wiped, do you really think they will do it again? If they do, wipe it again... If they start harassing, ban them permanently. Simple as that. I think this server would be a lot more fun if they were more creative with theirs bans.

    Also
    This could apply for more types of bans. I just find vote abusing to be a great example.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2020
  2. Bunnyx3
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    Bunnyx3 Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion, just warn 1 time is enough for vote abuse.
    First time can be ignorance and not really read the rules when join server.
    But after 1st time, cant tolerate 2nd time~f3. The 2nd time is for sure that person intend to break the rules.
     
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  3. Codey
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    Codey Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you. The problem that I have with this is that people come back after 3 years as a more grown up person. Yet they don't have the chance to play anymore. I feel like those people will mature after a while. I believe there is some good in everyone. I think that having your account wiped is enough detail for you to understand to never do it again. And if you mature 2 or 3 years later, you can come back in a new light.
     
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  4. Shnang
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    Shnang Donator

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    This needs a lot of effort though. How feasible is all this for the current manpower of royals staff
     
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  5. Codey
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    Codey Well-Known Member

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    I mean, wiping an inventory takes 10 seconds if you write a script for it
     
  6. Hamburg
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    Hamburg Forum Moderator

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    Making 5 different ban appeals per person, wiping an innocent person's inventory(some people were wrongfully banned in the past, we are all humans), tracking people and their offences, this is a lot of work for quite a meaningless task. If my guy abuses after being warned once he is clearly doing it intentionally.

    Besides, the issue is the amount of nx the abusers cycle into the economy. Even if you ban someone, the dude was getting an unfair amount of nx until caught, and by that inflated the cs/ws/apr prices and did his damage on the economy.

    I understand the idea of forgiveness, but I truly believe one of the reasons mapleroyals still stands as the top server is due to the zero tolerance policy and strict rule enforcing.
     
  7. Codey
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    Codey Well-Known Member

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    If you're suggesting that MapleRoyals strict policy is anything unique, you're mistaking.. I think you've slightly misinterpreted my thread. Sure, I understand the problems you may face along with wiping peoples accounts. But obviously, this should only be done when it is a 100% certain someone is at fault.
     
  8. Hamburg
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    Hamburg Forum Moderator

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    You(edit:as a bystander) will probably assume that people are innocent because they take their time to write fairy tales in their ban appeals.

    I don't want to go deeper into the argument so let me sum up what I meant.
    The staff here isn't dumb. These people are good at what they do. People don't get banned for no reason.
    As a player, it's easy to get fooled by the rule breakers (e.g skunk's legendary ban appeal) which lead you to believe they didn't do nothing.
    When someone makes such an effort to vote abuse that severely, I don't see the need for 5 warnings until they get permanently banned.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2020
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  9. Codey
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    Codey Well-Known Member

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    You assume that I believe in fairy tail stories based on...? You're being awfully rude for no reason. If you feel offended, you should do it in a PM. As a staff member you should know better. This is uncalled for, and this isn't the first time you've been rude without context. Disagreeing with me is fine.

    I'm talking about people who have matured years later and want another shot, but they can't because of a mistake they know they made. Imagine if the prison system worked like that. I'm taking about flying in zakum jump quest because you're too lazy. You've matured and understand your ban. So six months later you try again. Humans change, just like you mentioned. And that's my opinion. Hence ''unpopular opinion''.

    Anyhow, you've given your opinion. That's all I wanted form this thread and thank you for that.

    For future purposes, please get off your high horse. I understand the purple tag gives you an ego and you're doing an extravagant job showing that, but keep in mind that you're representing everyone on your team.
     
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  10. HealBell
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    HealBell Member

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    They weren't being rude. You're taking what they said out of context and getting offended for no reason.

    Anyway, I understand the thought of giving people chances to learn from their mistakes but 1 warning is enough for vote abuse. As was said earlier, depending on the sevarity of the abuse, it can directly effect the economy. There are some other bans that probably deserve some leniency, but not vote abuse in my opinion.
     
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  11. Codey
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    Codey Well-Known Member

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    Putting words in peoples mouth is rude period.

    To keep it on topic, thanks for your opinion. I agree that it is hard to differentiate between what can and what can't be tolerated. I still don't believe in permanent punishments. I think it doesn't help anyone. Some people have friends that can't play anymore because they HP washed their girlfriends account. Those people deserve another chance if you ask me. But then again, this still remains an unpopular opinion.
     
  12. Hamburg
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    Hamburg Forum Moderator

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    Come on man don't try to twist my words.
    Your post was about vote abusers, I replied to that section. My statement about fairy tales, or more so made up stories, is not personal, but rather general. I gave skunk's ban appeal as an example because back then ban appeal likes were enabled, and you can see that the dude managed to fool the community for quite a bit until he revelead everything. https://mapleroyals.com/forum/threads/ban-appeal.108825/

    No idea why you decided to bring up people flying in zakum, if your post was about vote abuse.
    As I said before, it is almost impossible to vote abuse without an intention.


    For future purposes, I am a player just like everyone else on the game, and always have been. My opinions are based off my experiences in the server, as a player. The fact that I can give warning points for uncalled for memes doesn't mean I feel superior to anyone, it's the other way around. I gave you my sincere opinion on the subject, while I can admit I personally am tired of reading stories in the ban appeal section, which may came out wrong. I am sorry if I somehow offended you, but I truly don't believe I said anything rude, or inappropriate.

    Would appreciate if you can link to me my the other times when I was rude out of context, so I can apologize to those I hurt.
     
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  13. Codey
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    Codey Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for this respectful comment. I will PM you the comments later today or tomorrow.

    On topic: I mentioned in my thread ''This could apply for more types of bans. I just find vote abusing to be a great example.'' So I just used another example I deemed fit. Not just vote abuse.


     
  14. Hamburg
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    Hamburg Forum Moderator

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    Then I believe the title is a bit misleading. I admit I must have missed that line but considering the title I figured the discussion would be about vote abuse.
     
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  15. sparky95
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    sparky95 Donator

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    There are some loopholes in the suggestion. Let's visit them to improve the idea.

    Vote abusers often do it on multiple accounts. I've heard of someone who got caught with 15+ accounts before. One month of vote ban won't be enough to negate their stock of NX.

    Complications will follow with items that they lent to others or asked for safekeeping. People will always find a way to take advantage of the grey area and pretend their items were traded or downgraded in a "fair" way as a measure to hide them away. Staff won't be able to confiscate those items from their friends under the current T&C.

    Royals has been online for 6 years +. Only God knows how many current players are ban evaders. My estimation is a minimum of 30% of the total population. If you doubt this number, try to answer why so many people know exactly what to do when they enter the server as a proposed "newbie". As we witnessed from a few ban appeals, these folks return with full knowledge about the game and poke at every area where they can take legal and illegal advantage of others. The most recent one was https://mapleroyals.com/forum/threads/ban-appeal.151791/. Remember how many times Zofran returned to royals: he's still here after all. Royals doesn't have the best security out there so there's no way to tell if someone vote abused out of innocent stupidity or under the disguise of a newbie hood. A strict policy is inevitable with the current insecure state of the server.

    As mentioned by others, once the NX is poured into the economy before they are caught, either via Gachapon or AP resets, it cannot be undone. Thousands of Gachapon items in the form of rare equips, etc or scrolls will oversaturate the market and affect the economy. Limitation of AP Reset sellers is the only factor holding back more people from heavily washing their characters. Mass vote abuse supplies a substantial portion of those ap resets. Most people don't care whether they are buying their 800 AP resets from an obvious vote abusing lvl 50 char or a reputable lvl 200 mage. Once the vote abused NX is filtered through Gachapon or AP Resets, their unpleasant contribution to the server cannot be undone even with an inventory wipe.

    I'd say a 2nd chance is a maximum limit of appeal even with major (I dunno exactly how long this is but I'll assume more than 2 weeks) vote abuse but ONLY when the equal NX to the duration of vote abuse is still left on their account(s) for deletion and within 2 maximum accounts. Those voting on 3 + accounts already have a blueprint of mass illegal income.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020
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  16. Becca
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    Becca GM Intern

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    I agree with most of your points, but I'd just like to share my input too, if you don't mind :)

    Vote abuse should be (for the most part) permanently banned,
    and here is why in my opinion:

    You're suggesting to give people 5 warnings, think of how many vote abusers we will have if that was actually implemented. A lot of people don't care about the rules, and I've seen a few players purposely abuse just enough to get away with minor abuse.
    So I can see those 5 warnings being heavily abused by others, causing more problems down the road for the community and the economical growth of the game. The main issue with vote abuse is how quickly it can turn into mesos via APR or Gacha and then it's gone into the void within seconds.

    I don't believe in the idea of permanent punishment either, but sometimes it's necessary.
    I personally don't like enforcing the rules, but it has to be done and I have no problem doing it when it's warranted.
    I'm sure other members of our Staff feel the same way.
    I also guarantee you that if we let everyone do whatever they wanted, Royals would turn into Lord of the Flies within a couple of months lol

    We do have a minor and major section of vote abuse. Our Admins can determine who is telling the truth or not based on the logs. When I was a player I used to think something was up, that something was shady on the Staff's side-- but ever since I've joined, I've gotten to see both sides now. We have a ton of evidence, we just can't share it because we want to keep other players confidential. And if we share our evidence publicly, then it opens up a whole other door for hackers/rwters/vote abusers/etc to lurk on the forums to grab information and re-construct a better plan to hide it for the next time.
    That's why we don't share evidence publicly.
    That was a bit off topic, but hopefully you understand where I'm coming from with that, sorry! ^_^'

    Major vote abuse is determined on how many times you've done it. From what I've been seeing, most players will do it just a little bit, and then go further because they didn't get caught. Then, once they do get caught it's already too late.
    They thought they were untouchable, and then they got caught.

    With all of that being said, I can see maybe 3 warnings, but I think 5 is too many personally.
    I think account wiping should be looked into, I personally wouldn't let them get their accounts back but I can see account wiping and letting them re-make an account again would be a good option.

    What do you mean about this? Genuinely curious, and I don't understand :(

    Just catching up in the comments, hence why this post is taking so long to be published:

    He is pretty much right in that sense. Tons of people will make a ban appeal and make themselves look as innocent as possible. We do have innocent players, and we have players who purposely write ban appeals just to watch the community lash out against one another over what's right and wrong. This kinda ties into my whole "why logs can't be public" speech. Though I don't know if this was the right place to talk about this topic.. ^_^'

    I understand where you're coming from in wanting to see the good in everyone Codey, I really do. I'm the same way as well and I just want the best for everyone regardless of what they've done. But some people shouldn't be given multiple chances. :(

    I apologize for sounding harsh here, but as for your response that was uncalled for and incredibly childish. I understand someone misunderstanding a post, but to act like that is honestly very disrespectful, doesn't matter who you are.
    I don't think Hamburg flaunts his "purple tag ego" and he always apologizes if he upsets someone and he tries to make things right if a misunderstanding occurs.

    Basically hits the nail on the head, though I must admit pre bb Maplestory has been around since 2003-2004 so it's possible some of the new players are from other servers. It's also not a hard concept to grasp once you get the hang of it too haha but maybe that's just me trying to be optimistic.

    Vote abuse is a big problem because you can liquidate that NX in a matter of seconds into APRs or Gacha and I think your post reflects that wonderfully.
     
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  17. kyoko3102
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    kyoko3102 Well-Known Member

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    try first before you say something like that ?
     
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  18. Codey
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    Codey Well-Known Member

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    @Becca
    I'm not really in the mood to multi quote most of everything but I want to clarify a few things.

    - The 5 ban thing should be taken lightly. It's just an idea. I just believe there should be an extreme measure like an account wipe vs permanent. Whether it is the 3rd or 27th isn't really my point.
    -I know I've been rude, but when someone is putting words in my mouth, you can't really expect someone to respond in a kind matter. Either way I apologize to @Hamburg for that since he probably didn't intend it that way. This kind of came from a post prior to this where hamburg was in my eyes rude. But I will discuss that with him in a PM soon as this isn't related to this thread.
    - I also want to address that my whole thread shouldn't be taken to literally. My whole point is ''be creative with bans''. Not ''there should be 5 chances for vote abusers''. I genuinely understand the idea behind gray area.
    - Again, for the part of @sparky95. It would make a great point taking my thread literally. But I haven't been clear enough, and that's my fault. My point is that if you think it through, there are better ways, rather than letting people like Skadi the #1 player back then who was banned in 2015 iirc for washing his girlfriends account(correct me if I'm wrong). If his account were to be wiped he would most definitely play for a whole lot longer.
     
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  19. Becca
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    Becca GM Intern

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    No worries! No hard feelings here at all :) I think it's admirable that you owned up to your mistake, and I respect that a lot.
    Apologies for the delayed post, I had this written up around 4:30pm my time, it's now 6:40pm oops ^_^' things kept coming up and I finally got around to posting it, so I'm a bit behind on most of the comments haha
     
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  20. Codey
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    Codey Well-Known Member

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    This message doesn't come out of arrogance. To give you some background, I'm computer science major. And worked on reverse engineering servers below v40.

    If @Matt would seriously consider this, I would send him the script within 20 minutes.
    I'm not interested in a coding thread, but if you genuinely want me to proof it to you. Shoot me a DM.

    The easiest way is to boot the player offline, and then just delete the inventory from the database.

    e.g. SQL query
    DELETE * FROM items WHERE char_id=<id>
     

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