In Discussion Rework Destroyed Park 2 to make solo AM leech more viable

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by UrbanJuggernaut, Feb 2, 2021.

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Should Destroyed Park 2 be reworked?

  1. Yes

    58 vote(s)
    59.2%
  2. No

    40 vote(s)
    40.8%
  1. UrbanJuggernaut
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    As most know, the controversial update 65 came with multiple waves of changes designed to nerf the leeching and farming power of Mages. In addition to global drop rate nerfs and a substantial hike on % based potions, Ulu City received some very targeted nerfs specifically aimed at AMs, particularly in Ulu Estate 1/2 and Ulu City Center, while Skele maps were left completely intact. After much uproar, the addendum patch 65.1 introduced Destroyed Park 1/2 spawn buffs, making those maps the new endgame leeching map for AMs. It has been some time since update 65 and I'd like to take a look at how these changes have lead to the decline of endgame solo AM leech and a proposal to fix it.

    While Ulu Estate is still a widely used and popular leeching spot, the highest tiers of leeching have been placed in an awkward position for AMs. Since Skele spawn was left untouched in update 65, its popularity declined much slower. Petri, on the other hand, saw a targeted spawn nerf on top of the other global nerfs, and though slightly corrected in a subsequent patch, still doesn't quite slap the same. This can be seen with the decline of Petri leech demand and by extension, drop in price of Petri leech. A 14x AM used to be able to sell for 75/150 and has now fallen to 60/120, while Skele is a mostly stable 55/110 or even 60/120 itself for lower level or experienced sellers, all while providing a vastly better drop table than Petri. This has shifted the meta heavily towards Skele for solo mage leech and leaves AMs in an awkward position when trying to work towards higher tiers of leech past Ulu 2, though it seems Skele is also on a downturn as well. At the moment, there is no incentive to leveling and gearing a single strong AM.

    But Duku was supposed to replace it right? After a targeted nerf to only AMs was implemented and their top tier leeching map specifically nerfed, the goal post was then moved to Duku. The problem is that the layout of the 2 maps leaves a solo AM seller in the dust. Destroyed Park 1 is massive, and is therefore not able to be efficiently cleared by a single mage, leading to the trio Mage Duku meta we are in currently. A solo Mage with perfect TC can achieve ~37m-39m exp/hr to 2 buyers around level 12x, while a trio Duku seller can provide ~40m-42m exp/hr and to 3 buyers without even having to move. 1 hit Duku also requires 1350 TMA, a not insignificant number that requires solid funding and level to achieve. Trio mage Duku sellers need only 2 hit, a considerably lower investment. The top Mage can even get away with being 3 hit.

    Now I didn't come here to shit on trio Duku leech. It takes a lot of time and patience to get 3 AMs to 4th job, gear them a bit, and keep your rotation solid through shifting through windows for hours at a time. I would like to propose a change to Destroyed Park 2 to make it solo AM friendly and allow those who wish to only use 1 single, powerful Mage to farm/sell leech a place to go and a goal to aim for. For those unaware, the max exp able to be achieved is much lower than at Destroyed Park 1, even with a solo AM, due to a few factors I'd like to outline.

    -A big part of the power of Duku and most other high tier leech maps is the ability to clear 3 platforms at once. In DP1, the 2 side mages are hitting max mobs every spawn, with most of those being Duku. This is also true for Petri and Skele.

    -A map specific issue is the large ditch in the middle of the bottom floor under the entrance portal, referred to from here on out as "the pit". Dukus in the pit are not able to be hit from any of the top platforms, requiring one to go down to the bottom level to clear them in order to keep spawns churning efficiently. This really kills the viability of the map the most imo.

    -The spawn is generally lower than DP1, as you are typically not hitting max mobs with each cast.





    My professionally revised version of DP2 to make it more solo AM and TC friendly
    dp1revised.png


    Fill in the pit (marked in green) and make it a small plateau, fusing it with the entrance portal platform. This allows the map to become a 3 spot TC (marked with red X), with the middle spot able to hit the mobs on the plateau and the side spots able to hit the mobs to the left and right of the plateau. The rope leading to the very top platform can be the safe spot for HS/buyers (marked in blue with S). Also, I think spawn should be adjusted such that a perfect TC rotation yields approximately the same amount of exp to 2 buyers as trio Duku in DP1 provides to 3 buyers (~40m-42m exp/hr). Trio mage sellers would not be able to take advantage of this map as the platforms spawn Dukus, and since trio sellers are 2 hit, run the risk of being stunned and constantly knocked off the side platforms. This creates a balance and supports a diversity of playstyles.

    Solo AM @ DP2

    Pros
    -Only requires 1 AM and an HS mule (~1.5 mages)
    -Requires only 2 clients vs 3, and HS client is only used once every 2 mins
    -Able to actually loot Duku drops, which are somewhat better than Slygie

    Cons
    -Only able to service 2 buyers
    -Requires telecasting, and on uneven terrain, which can be tricky
    -Requires high level and TMA, which takes time and funding.


    Trio Mage @ DP1

    Pros

    -Able to service 3 buyers
    -Requires very little movement
    -Very low TMA and level requirements

    Cons
    -Requires making 3 lvl 130+ Mages
    -Requires constant purchase of Everstones to keep Mage levels low
    -With the recent macro restriction to Mage ultimates, is likely much more tedious to perform
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2021
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  2. Zancks
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    Zancks Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree and I even think trio duku shouldn’t be a thing. It just feels broken to abuse casting times. (I do have enough mages to do it myself and I tried it)
    Please give me a reason to level up my I/L:o
     
  3. TN Laxus
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    TN Laxus Well-Known Member

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    100%. Best leech should be given by those who invested billions on getting the best items on the lowest lvl mage.
     
  4. Zancks
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    Zancks Well-Known Member

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    May be an unpopular opinion but i would prefer Mage level not to affect leeching exp so it would simply best geared / highest level (prolly most experienced) leecher but that’s another story
     
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  5. UrbanJuggernaut
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    That would be pretty OP and would require an overhaul of the party EXP system in general, also level =/= experience leeching either, you can be the best leecher at 14x or the worst at 200. This is a bit off topic though and I'd like to keep the discussion as focused as possible.

    I'd like to hear from those voting no on how this wouldn't be a fair implementation, as its essentially finishing the job started in update 65. Currently, theres no point making an AM past 13x or gearing it past 2 hit Duku.
     
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  6. TN Laxus
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    TN Laxus Well-Known Member

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    You would destroy a whole market. Int gear is valuable for more reasons than giving int to your new character without actually putting points into int.

    I got like 15b worth of items on my mage just because like that I will be able to leech on petris and give great exp. Why would someone who lvled up his mage for 3 weeks which is what takes to lvl up like 50 lvls from 120 to 170 (or more) get the same result as me?
     
  7. Snuf
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    Snuf Well-Known Member

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    "Since Skele spawn was left untouched in update 65, its popularity never declined."
    "while Skele is a very stable 60/120 or even 65/130 itself for lower level or experienced sellers"

    With my current gear I can 1 hit skeles @ 137 and I have to say I disagree entirely with this sentiment. The skele market feels very dead and people have been steadily undercutting the rates you mention by selling at 50/100 and 55/110.

    "I'd like to take a look at how these changes have lead to the decline of endgame solo AM leech and a proposal to fix it."

    I do agree with this sentiment. I'm curious to see what will happen, so this comment is to follow this thread.
     
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  8. midwinter
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    Second this. Back in sept/oct 2020 I was able to sell skeles at 65-70m split without a problem but somewhere towards the end of the year skele market completely died and 55-60m became the norm instead even though i was easily giving 40-42m xp to lvl 12x-13x split buyers (lvl 165 bish). Even at 60m many people wouldn't buy from me because of my level.

    But understandably so, buying skele leech is always a gamble unless you already know your seller is competent with spawn timers/rotations.

    Trio duku is just a more reliable and consistent source of exp for your mesos compared to petris/skeles at the current state of the game.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2021
  9. UrbanJuggernaut
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    My "data" from Skele is mostly from smega and sellers I personally know, so its likely a bit skewed as I don't sell it myself. It seems trio Duku may have also affected the Skele market as well, then. Edited in post, thanks for the replies!
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2021
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  10. UrbanJuggernaut
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    Bump for visibility. Do I retire my 16x 1350 TMA AM to make 3 noob AMs? -.-'
     
  11. Snuf
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    Snuf Well-Known Member

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    I would use them so you save 50% on pots cost and have time to pick up loot.
     
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  12. UrbanJuggernaut
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    Unfortunately, with trio Duku, level is a larger factor since there are 3 mages and having a nearly 17x mage is not very attractive. Another issue is having a 1 hit mage mixed in with 2 hit mages throws off the rhythm of spawns.

    Another option is reworking DP2 to give players like me a place to sell endgame leech :8):
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2021
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  13. Skoyi
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    Just imagine people investing around 10b to reach a 145-155 Petri leecher/ 150+ Skele leecher with the idea to get a pretty solid service. Then ZERO gears mages, with anything than just leech those mules til 130+, covering the entire attention of buyers (looking at the smegas of the last 2 weeks) and not to mention how skele/petri prices fell off because of Duku. Seems like balanced, doesn't it?
     
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  14. Snuf
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    Snuf Well-Known Member

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    Otoh, it costs bishops like me a significant amount of time to get those mages 13x, and I would wager your time is more valuable undercutting dukus than selling dukus for more once u reach the desired leeching levels. (Which would become worth only once mesos/hour overtakes (mesos/hour - (hours*mesos)*hours taken).
     
  15. UrbanJuggernaut
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    I would disagree on both points. If you have a Bishop, that means you;

    1. Have access to HS
    2. Have a set of Mage gear you can hand off to your training Mage as it levels up

    Mages have a fine time training, and leech doesn't really become better until 3rd job. Hell, if you go FP, you can blow through 3rd job in a few days naked with Poison Mist. Getting an AM to 130 is really not hard even as a new player, and with HS and some gear, is even easier.

    On your second point, if it wasn't worth the investment to make another 65m+/hr, nobody would have ever graduated from Ulu to Petri/Skele in the first place. Being able to reliably make up to 240m/hr (80m/hr x 3 buyers) before NPC is extremely powerful and worth the relatively low investment required, even taking into account pot costs and monthly Everstones. This is evident by the explosion of trio Duku sellers since around Christmas.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2021
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  16. Evan
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    Would filling in the pit fix everything, mostly?
     
  17. UrbanJuggernaut
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    Assuming it allows the mage to hit the mobs on bottom from the middle X, I think it would go a very long way in making the map viable, yes.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2021
  18. MaiAh
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    addressing the issue with multiclienting is better then going around map layout changes or some job nerfs that just makes things more annoying
    i know we "enjoy" abuse that mule meta but we pay high price long term that ultimately kills us ( age server way to quick)
    and we can see from smegas and market how things started to "require" more and more mules just to get "decent" reward

    i've said so many times that multiclienting is bad but the greed for "less split" or "better rate" took over and still going fast without realising that we don't appreciate the rewards and just kill the game

    duku 3 naked low lvl mages is the best example of how broken things are now but we ignore and keep abuse for a long time allready (and we are going to pay high price for that soon maybe we allready started pay)
     
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  19. Zancks
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    Zancks Well-Known Member

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    LF more gm/Admin Feedback
    Can I just sell all my mage gear like everyone else does?
     
  20. UrbanJuggernaut
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    Bump for visibility. I know staff is dealing with the recent wave of security bans, but any sort of acknowledgement would be greatly appreciated.

    I'd also like to once again ask those voting no to provide a single concrete reason why this shouldn't be implemented and how this isn't simply an extension of update 65.1, and should arguably have been a part of the initial buff to the Duku maps. There is no reason to level/gear a Mage when the best endgame leech is sold with Ulu2 tier equipment and level.
     
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