Hi guys, for those who do not know me, I've mained a marksman since 2015. I took a long break end 2015, came back occasionally, and then rejoined properly at the end of 2017. It's been a weird time for us marksmen. There was the hype build up, the release of new source, the experimentation of mm's and then... Nothing. Fast forward to 2018 and we've been labelled as a second rated BM or SE mule. what happened? However, Fast forward even more to Mid 2018, Marksmen will officially be buffed. Spoiler: Irrelevant math as of update 54 BOSSING GAMEPLAY: First off, I'd like to point off playing a marksman isn't easy. Granted it's not as hard as dismounting and mounting on a sair, but it certainly requires your attention, unlike our sister class which can simple go alt tab in krex. Why? Enter: Snipe Marksmen use strafe and snipe to deal damage when bossing. Snipe has a cooldown of 5 seconds. A general MM's attacking pattern would be to alternate between the skills. Now, time for some numbers. For all calculations, we're going to assuming strafe and snipe have a cast speed of 600ms. (achievable attack speed with SI, optimal scenario) Strafe: 4 arrows shot in 0.6s. 100% damage at max level per arrow. Snipe: I cannot find any reliable source showing it's cast timing, but for assumptions sake let's go with 0.6s too. So, a realistic attack cycle will look like this: In 5 seconds: snipe x1 > strafe x7 > buffer 0.2sec (lag, repositioning, etc.)> repeat. That gives us, 28 arrows and 1 snipe being shot. Performing 7 strafes and one snipe in succession also requires a certain amount of attention, unlike other classes which only require one key to attack. Pressing the wrong button off sequence or too early will result in a DPM drop. Per minute we have: 336 arrows fired from strafe, and 12 snipes. Let's make this comparision to a BM: Hurricane: 8.333 arrows/second, 500 arrows per minute. As we can see,12 snipes needs to outdamage the offset amount of arrows BM's can fire off, in this case is 164. so 1 snipe needs to do the same damage of an average of 13.666 arrow's from a BM. Now here's the kicker: snipe does not scale. So let's do the comparison with my range: I have a 8k - 6.5k range clean, with MW20. You can sub in any range with the formula below dont be a dingus and forget advanced crossbow mastery gives 10wa like me Damage calculator for crossbow: Max: [(DEX * 3.6 + STR) / 100] * Weapon Attack Min : Crossbow = (DEX * 0.9 * 3.6 * Skill Mastery + STR) / 100 * Weapon Attack I will make a comparison with another 8k clean BM. One arrow does 100%, with 55% chance to crit an additional 140%. On average one arrow (from strafe or hurricane) does 177%. Spoiler: MATH .55(140) + 100 = 177 13.666 arrows of 177% = 2417.82%. ≈ 2420% important equation >2420%*(Max range + Min range)/2 This will be used to calculate the damage done with a clean range: 2420%*(8k+6.5k)/2 ≈ 175.5k now what does this mean? the amount of damage snipe would do surprisingly, outweigh BM's hurricane damage! BUT WAIT, Now's where the problem comes in. Noone actually bosses without buffs. Let's factor in a stopper, my range becomes 10.6k - 8.6k. Let's use the equation again: 2420%*(10.6k+8.6k)/2 ≈ 232.3k No surprise, BM's arrows would do more damage than one snipe. And it gets worse with an apple.... My range becomes 12.3k - 10k. using the equation again: 2420%*(12.3k+10k)/2 ≈270.8k As we can clearly observe, the damage gap gets wider and wider. Also, I'd like to point out that weapon defense has been ignored in calculations for simplicity's sake. Let's work backwards shall we? We can calculate the range where snipe breaks even with BMs hurricane. 2420%*(x) = 200k x being your average range. And this magical number is 8.2k. 8.2k for a buffed average range to break even with a BM. That's.... pretty underwhelming. In summary: when I apple/stopper vs when a BM apples/stoppers: I lose out 70k/32k damage every 5 seconds. What I'm getting at is that snipe hampers MM's damage in terms of scaling. Out of the 8 attacks a MM can pull off every 5 seconds, 1 of them will be capped. Also, a quote I've seen: "NL's can do more damage in one TT than one snipe." That's extremely discouraging to hear. Granted maybe snipe was more relevant in GMS, because not everyone had access to Godly (or better) gear in general. But i digress. In light of update 54, let's have a quick analysis of how marksmen fair with the new changes: NEW Bossing gameplay: Snipe's cooldown has now been lowered to 4seconds! This means effectively one attack cycle will be [Snipe (x1) > Strafe (x6)];Which takes a total of 4.2 seconds. In approximately One minute: 60s/4.2s ≈14 cycles can be performed. But wait, there's more! It is what it is, Strafe has increased from 100% base damage, to 125% base damage! This is a static amount and the addition 25% does not count to crit damage, so effectively one line of strafe will do 232% (old average) + 25% = 257%. Effectively, Per minute we have: 6x4x14 = 336 arrows (UNCHANGED) and 14 snipes, which leads to 336*257% = 86.352k% damage + 14x199k in a minute. VS (7x4x12) = 336; 336*232% = 77.952k% damage + 12x199k in a min Going again with my current stopper range, the comparision would be: 86.352k%*9600+ 14*199k = 11090k dpm 77.952%*9600+ 12*199k = 9883.380k dpm Please take into consideration these values are considered with SI, minimal lag and perfect casting with no delays. AKA it is highly unlikely such numbers will be reached. TLDR; I get to deal approximately 12% more damage now. Not bad. For a BM with a similiar range, he'd do: 500*232%*9600 =11136k dpm. Spoiler: Minor issues which still remain GRINDING GAMEPLAY: Now there might be a second argument: MM's are much better mobbers than BM's and can grind. Now I have a few issues with this statement, and this is because: 1. Dragon's breath is gimped, it mechanically does not make sense, as it fails to do its job of pushing monsters away from the MM at close range. PKB arguable puts in more work. It would be nice if both BM and MM could use it at point blank range, making this skill a lot more viable. 2. Piercing arrow is clumsy to use. It has a charge time of 1 second, and if release it at the wrong timing, will not even go off at all. Now this is the real kicker. Our "mobbing skill" is STILL extremely clunky and inconsistent. It requires precise avoiding of frames to prevent the move from FAILING. Note that the skill will not fire off at point blank range either. I will say this though, PA doesn't really need a buff as long as dragons breath would be more usable,as they both go in tandem. I really wish the two skills had better synergy. And thats not even considering the fact it is really hard to acquire HS at the endgame grinding spot, Ob4. (Or find a duo partner who has one). Yes rip fm button too. Yes MM > BM in terms of grinding, but its not saying much especially with such clumsily designed skills. Moving on, here are some plausible solutions for MM that I have thought of. I understand that some would really go against the spirit of royals *ahem* nostalgia, thus more than one suggestion is given. Spoiler: Old irrelevant proposals PROPOSALS: 1. Give MM a scaling Snipe. Aka, have snipe do damage based off a % instead of a static flat 200k. Comments: This gets rid of scaling issues, but makes MM lose its signature max damage hit. Would be interesting to see however as this would be the most balanced change to allow MM to scale uniformly to their range. 2. Lower the snipe CD Comments: Still doesn't resolve scaling issues, but just gives MM a general damage boost. I don't like this solution but a boost in damage is a boost in damage. This change might have one repercussion, making early game MM significantly stronger. I see a 4sec cooldown being thrown around a fair bit for the change in cooldown too. 3. Make snipes cooldown scale according to the MM's level. Comments: This one would be an interesting one to see. Apart from suggestion 1, I find this change good too as it includes scaling in a MM over levels, without touching its signature max damage line. 4. Increase the amount of lines strafe does. Comments: A nice change, but again not very GMS prebigbang like. I'd carefully like to add this was implemented post bigbang too. Thread lightly with this one. 5. Keep snipe with the same cooldown, but allow it to bypass the damage cap and do more damage according to the attack potion consumed. For example: 225k with a heartstopper. 250k with an apple/gelt. Comments: A unique approach to the skill while keeping the theme of doing 'max damage'. 6. Increase strafe damage for Marksmen. Comments: How does one increase the damage for strafe for only MM? I can think of one suggestion: Code it together with marksman advanced mastery to increase the % of damage done with a single line of strafe. Closing words: And that's my take on marksmen. I feel that we're in a pretty bad spot now. Pally's got a damage boost and are more playable with team buffs. Sairs got a rapid fire damage increase although their damage output was already solid back then. It hurts me to say it, but MM is not an attractive class to play. It comes with a low reward for a relatively hard playstyle. If not for SE, the sheer clumsiness of the class would render it unfavourable. The long deserved MM buff (which I didn't see coming) has finally arrived. Does it make MM OP. Nope. Does it make them more viable. Yup. Also, it is Clear we're still not as strong as BM's, but I feel that with the buff, MM's damage output has become somewhat more respectable. Go wild my fellow marksmen, and carry your team to victory as you slug it out with that next Horntail/zakum/continue to be an FMhoe. Cheers! -Sena Spoiler: too much math/words, didn't read Marksmen scale poorly and have unrewarding gameplay mechanics, making them one of the worse classes to invest time and effort into. However, now that they're finally getting a buff, this thread is more of an analysis instead of a feedback one *EDIT*: formatting, and added a 6th suggestion *EDIT* 28/6/18: New numbers added for the calculation for Marksmen damage.