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Marksman feedback [Snipe nerf poll inside]

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by Cooler, Nov 4, 2019.

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How do you feel about the snipe nerf?

  1. Boo!

    96.2%
  2. Also no

    3.8%
  1. Cooler
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    Cooler Donator

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    I did say a handful of things that will buff damage without buffing damage lol

    -Snipe having a 6-10 sec auto target will keep attacks focused (if you think this is nothing, talk to any sair, myself included, and I dont even want the targeted damage boost)
    -blind 1v1 will give marksmen some avoid which will stop getting them ragdolled and having to reposition all the time
    -ignore w.def and avoid boost
    -rollback the snipe nerf

    The others are training qol

    250k is the most I'd want to see buffed on snipe. I dont want a crazy bandwagon damage thing that happened with sairs and shads and crash all the prices of the things I can already not afford lol
     
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  2. Cynn
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    Cynn Donator

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    Shads are one of the most unpopular classes again since NL mains just realized making a 2nd 200 NL is more rewarding. Sairs have never been popular, but at least good sair gameplay is rewarding.

    Even if they let snipe do 2 lines of 199k it'd be a flavour of the month class and die out. I'm 50/50 on how I feel on a buff atm; but even if they did buff MM, not many are actually gonna play this class still.
     
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  3. Cooler
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    Cooler Donator

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    I agree, that's why taking away one of the few things we could do to help (it's like a mini crasher) is such a pain
     
  4. Cynn
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    I'd personally ask for strafe damage over snipe. But buffing snipe would make more sense cause it's the bread butter of the class. They're not gonna revert the snipe bug fix; if they fixed it so be it, let's just move forward.
    • Buffing strafe benefits end game MM players and scales better with gear.
    • Buffing Snipe benefits all MM players
    • Could also buff xbow mastery? I personally don't like them touching it.
    I got used to Piercing Arrow over time. Honestly don't bother touching dragons breath, useless skill in GMS too, PKB is our saving grace.
     
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  5. Cooler
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    Matt (I believe it was matt) said the snipe change isn't necessarily in stone, and that they appreciate any feedback about it

    And I think buffing snipe would be more beneficial overall and keep the use of both strafe and snipe more dynamic
     
  6. Geyforlife
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    Geyforlife Well-Known Member

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    If you think MM damage is unhealthy, then every other class is unhealthy when compared to NL and corsairs. NLs and corsairs literally are stronger by 25%. I don't disagree with this line of thought though, as it is clear to me that NLs and to a lesser degree, corsairs, are overpowered. (This basically means you need a full tier upgrade in gears to match a nl using mm/bm/bucc/...).

    MMs don't peak at 140. They peak at minimal funding. A MM with 15scg, 9fs, 11cape would be stronger than most other classes other than nls, corsairs. I wouldn't be happy about this if I were to invest hard on a MM, but this can be a consideration for new players if they know they aren't going to invest too much time upgrading gears.

    I don't really know how to objectively conclude something without conducting accurate experiments or using an accurate model and making estimations based on the model. I do agree that calculating dps in its current form is flawed, because the assumptions are not often valid, static boss, etc. But we currently have no better way. If there was a better way to measure the gap between classes that can easily take into account idle time, then there would be no reason for me to argue based on old charts. Maybe if you can have 2 players of different classes with relatively equal mechanical skill, equipped with the same level of funding fight in the same boss and observe which class whites the other more often. But even then, whiting does not exactly tell you by how large a margin has the person outdps everybody.

    I don't think this is true. Rapid fire is a terrible skill. The poor range of it and and the low avoidability of corsairs means they have to reposition more often than a MM.

    I still believe that the gulf you see in MM vs other classes is not as wide as you think it is. Well, it could be because you have played MM to pretty much end game and that's when the weakness of MM show up glaringly. There are many problems associated with other classes too:
    • Shadowers have really poor range with assassinate and idle pretty often at HT body once we moved on from bstep+BoT. Sometimes when I use attack potions, I get stuck in dark sight and idle for quite a bit.
    • Corsairs have the worse avoid among the ranged classes. Repositioning sucks.
    • Heroes have really shitty single dps tbh
    I can't really speak for other classes because I don't play them.

    At this point, I still lean towards the opinion that MMs aren't doing much worse than the other classes except NL and corsairs. Do I think these group of classes beneath nl/sairs require a buff? Absolutely.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
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  7. Cynn
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    I respect you arguments and sorry for coming off a little strong.

    I agree that you're right when you say MM peak at minimal funding. To the point I was flirting with the idea making 10 MM's and trying to solo Zak while alternating snipes while being buttnaked with a lvl 10 xbow.

    The current dps model is flawed and none of us could possibly make anything better, but I believe a lot of new players do google these DPS charts and will go off by pure numbers (and make their class decisions based by so). It's impossible to calculate DPS while we're running off of RNG chances (If you hit 100% Shadow Shifter/Dodge procs as a NL/Shad for example).

    My main issue with MM is that it never had very definite strengths. (NL consistent single target, Sair high risk high reward, Heroes/Drk Multi-Target hitting, etc.)
    It's mediocre with single target and has some multi target potential. Snipe going thru cancels was a gimmick which we branded ourselves as.
     
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  8. Exenet
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    In my experience with MMs, their biggest weakness is probably the inability to pin/corner area bosses that BMs and other classes have the ability to do, innately. BMs hurricane and even NLs can pin a boss like bigfoot and anego, even if not as efficiently as melee classes. I have done bigfoot with an experienced MM player a few years back and he kept dying to it while saying MMs are terrible for this. Now, it is possible to do these bosses with puppet, iframe method or just be washed high enough to tank, but that doesn't address the main problem with the class in that regard. As far as damage goes though I don't think they fall far behind the rest of the classes currently on the scale, but if something can be done to improve MMs for area bosses I'd support that.
     
  9. Cynn
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    You wrote all this area boss suggestion without an actual suggestion.

    I don’t want MM to became 2018 paladin where you hit 200 off of BF cause nobody brings a meme class to HT. (MM have SE im over exaggerating). @patnais77

    How could you possibly fix area boss pinning. You would need like 200% KB strafe arrows or you suggesting to give them hurricane and flash jump? MM without SI have almost no chance at pinning anego, even if we could, how are we gonna compete in map hunting vses NL? Bringing an HS mule and teleporting to take map owner isn’t a valid answer.

    Area bosses is such limited content.

    If you told a MM player, “dude you know why you class sucks? You can’t pin BF/Anego properly.”

    ?

    Your experience with MM sounds like a sample size pool of 1 guy who BF’d from time from time.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
  10. resum
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    resum Well-Known Member

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    I just think it's silly that with an additional buff that bowmasters don't need, MMs are still a decent amount worse
     
  11. Exenet
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    Its clear I don't have an answer for it and its the main "problem" the class has over other attacker classes. Since no other attacker has this problem that I can think of. If there can't be a way to fix it then I don't know how much can be done for them. Since the strafe damage buff, I don't see a real need to really buff the class further as all the classes are in a relatively good spot with their niche. Yea, MMs are still known as the worse BMs, but DKs are still known as the worse heros already. Doesn't mean they're bad, just a different niche/alternative.
     
  12. Baconfry
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    I think a more balanced way to increase the damage cap is to raise it to 250k/300k for critical hits only. Snipe always lands a crit, so this change always benefits MM, while not really buffing paladin/buccaneer during solo play, since they can't really land crits without SE.
     
  13. FuminoAya
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    Tell that @Nessi or @Tim lol
     
  14. Cooler
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    For the pin issue, could have each strafe arrow proc kb since each hurricane arrow can? Sounds like an impossible dev fix tho lol. Will be on later to weigh in more~

    Tie it into MMB, two arrows at lvl 10, 3 at 20, all 4 at max
     
  15. Cooler
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    I have a sair. And a shad. I have a good amount of insight into a lot of what you've said. Comparing towards nl/sairs is important in certain situations, but it doesn't mean I'm trying to bridge the gap, it's a comparison to consider the difference, not how to make them equal.

    15scg, 9fs, and an 11 cape are monster equips no matter what class. I will not consider this gear to be decent for mm, any physical class would cream for this base gear. Its far above decent or the norm, and an unrealistic barometer for classes across the board.

    Rapid fire is not at all terrible, and sairs suffer in no way from low avoid. I have a sair. I've partied with many sairs. Rapid fire is extremely stable (without 90% mastery mind you) and stronger base than hurricane. The slightly shorter range is redundant because cannon's range is farther than bm/mm attacks and you only need to hold down RF for 1.5 minutes to get back in ship. Rf is not terrible at all. Max bullseye and a good att pot and se with JUST bullseye will out damage most classes. This isn't counting summons. Sairs avoidability or lack thereof is a complete non issue in-game, idc what the charts say. Despite ship management (jumping in and out just to avoid damage, and halting your own attacks), and no avoid, they will regularly out damage, and it's mostly due to bullseye, and their very high base damage on skills. My sair has a crappy 98 att gun and if I bring stoppers even, I can white almost anyone. No att shoes, no gloves above 10, and no capes above 5. I'm not sure why you think sairs suffer so much. If you know how to be a good captain, it's easy exp.

    The shad in stall is a fraction of a second thing that you just have to watch for. It never "stalls" you anymore than typing "gfx" or talking shop with teammates in a run. It's something you are constantly watching out for, and your 40% shifter avoid and insane reg avoid and 50% refuctiin from all attacks and smokescreen has your back. It's another non issue, my shad is my highest char and it's just a part of how you attack and defend, almost no dmg lost, especially if you're also dropping to bomb, you gotta be kidding. Max nates low range is also a non issue because you have the tankiest AND highest avoid class in the game, you're already close enough, if you're too close to something you cant tank, bomb it instead

    On marksman, they have non-optimal speed (need SI), their non crits are *very* low, and only get 4 lines, snipe is easily lapped in four/five/six seconds depending on how efficiently you use it, and frostprey is more of a liability than an asset because of the elemental damage and the mob attraction. Pierce will never have bossing presence (very rarely will you snatch a good window in zak to sink good pierce damage). All these things combined make the much more ubiquitous and simplified "hold down hurricane" infinitely more desirable and accessible
     
  16. Joez
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  17. Cooler
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  18. NTR
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    This. Gears are almost a non-factor if both characters are from the same person (Nessi).

    Didn't really question the dps chart from valentines update until recently but many sources such as the Krex Eye battle (hitting a brick wall boss under ideal conditions), dps calculations from various charitable people, observations from experienced players all have subtle differences especially as to who is actually at the bottom of the tier. I don't wanna sound like an ingrate considering the effort put in by staffs in balancing classes but I feel like the official chart is not a realistic representation of the classes' dps performance, and MM may not be as high up as we thought even in ideal situations.

    As Cynn has mentioned it is unlikely they would change their mind on this "issue" but instead we could think about how to compensate or buff MM moving forward, most likely in the form of buffing Strafe or Snipe's damage by an appropriate amount.

    To add a bit of personal bias as an ''end game'' Hero, I don't like the idea that my class do less damage than most other class because "it is easy to play" as I watch less funded players from other classes white me. I've pretty much accepted it and can see why but I feel that the argument for MM is even worst. Being good at "early game" is a pretty shitty reason to fall off considerably late game (personal opinion), reduces motivation to reach end game, not to mention MM isn't brain dead compared to Hero due to having the need to re-position, being interrupted, strafe+snipe combo, etc. If anything MM should at least do more damage than Heroes at Single target if they aren't already (not sure which source to trust).
     
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  19. Cooler
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    A suggestion I considered but didnt post because I'm not sure why it happens, but snipe doesn't kb pianus.

    When my sair casts bullseye, and it does like 20-30k+, it procs a kb, and pianus makes a big goofy face.

    Snipe does 190-199k but doesn't proc kb.

    I understand multiple line attacks also wont proc kb for some reason, so is there something about snipe that stops this? Or something about bullseye that does? Because its maybe a simple high base % attack with a simple additional effect it casts?

    I'd be interested to see the dev stats that allowed snipe to break w.cancel, and to see if they're still in there, it sounds like they only modified the status of w.cancel and not snipe.

    All evidence points to snipe having this intended feature nonetheless, but curious what the team actually did here to understand the nerf, and also about snipe not proccing KB and why, if anyone has that insight
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019 at 5:21 PM
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  20. camello
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    i have always mained bowmen and i remember snipe always does dmg even with defense cancel or with the player debuffed.

    I couldnt find a pre BB video but in this post BB video at minute 4:31 is clear that snipe does damage through defense cancels

     
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