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Limiting the amount of mules allowed in boss runs

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by raejduk, May 23, 2020 at 4:23 AM.

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Should we limit the use of mules on Boss runs?

  1. Yes, limit the use of mules.

    47.2%
  2. No, you should be allowed to bring as many mules as you want.

    52.8%
  1. sparky95
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    sparky95 Donator

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    All the GM hosted events, RR/Olaola/Fitness etc. limit the entry of extra characters from the same device (with same MAC address). I believe it won't be difficult to implement the same system to bossing squads.

    If bypassing this becomes a bannable offense, it can actually work since no legit player would risk their hard-earned progress for little convenience during bossing. Staff should be able to trace who bypassed it by viewing the entry log of related accounts from a single player.
     
  2. resum
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    resum Well-Known Member

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    Muling is much more in favor of the newer player than is being represented in this thread. The time/meso investment into making a mule is a drop in the bucket compared to the gear investment that the traditional range checks will require, which would be more common for the bosses that are traditionally muled heavily and right now anyone is accepted. All of my comments are about recruiting pick up runs since most people I know are more than willing to take anyone in their guilds/buddy list or referrals from friends.

    The most common mules are SE and BS for krex/zak/toad (with hb for toad) and crash/sed mules for HT.

    For Zakum, I see smegas for SE and BS all the time and every archer and bishop I know has no problems getting on runs for Zakum. Allowing SE/BS muling means that a new player can provide that instead of being excluded in favor of a stronger player.

    For Krex and bishops, the problem of bishops having zero reason to join a run unless they're being paid or gets a ring. This locks out newer players who either need a ring or don't have the funds to compensate a bishop/hs mule for Krex runs daily.

    For Krex and SE, night lords basically need SE to run so if you're thinking "good that means people can't blindly play night lord", it also means that any SE player with a brain will prefer to take the 7k+ NL over the new 4-5k NL player. Other classes can go without SE, since they're unlikely to be favored unless they're a corsair due to the DPS difference, but range will be scrutinized much more for recruiting random members.

    It's hard enough to recruit any toad party due to the jump quest and high HP requirement even without having to find a dedicated bishop AND dark knight. I've seen people smegaing for last attacker with SE+HS+HB for multiple hours with no takers.

    For HT, I see my guilds/buddy lists recruiting bishop/SE all the time and it's not like they'll prefer someone muling over someone not, what matters is getting the needed buffs in the run and it's not like if people can't mule they would smega for randoms, they're already not looking for randoms mule or not. The DC problems have been greatly alleviated but they still happen and it's more reassuring to run with people you can (mostly) trust to not dc than some random other player.

    Crash and sed mules are really just quality of life mules that aren't strictly required to make a run, but one thing they both have in common is that they make it much more desirable to have a hero/drk/shad on the run as opposed to running all single target attackers. Without crash mules or even just a single paladin main for crash, an all single target attacker party can just attack the head that's not cancelled at any time and if they are all cancelled, attack the hands and wings. This results in a run with essentially no downtime due to crash since it is highly unlikely for either hand to enter warning before all three heads are down. If there is a multi target attacker, even with one crash, it is highly likely that on the last head, there will be multiple cycles where the head is cancelled and both hands are in warning so the party just has to sit there. This was one of the prime contributors to NLstory before crash was introduced.

    For a sed mule, the player it benefits the most is the multi target attacker who would normally cross after tail is down. Not only does it mean that you don't have to deal with sed/double sed disrupting your DPS, it also allows that attacker if it's a hero or shad to be essentially unwashed. With a sed mule, your sed attacker doesn't need to wash to 30k as a hero or 10k+ as a shad since they'll never be in that much danger. Running as main sed with a random bishop is also a disaster asking to happen.
     
  3. DzKnight
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    DzKnight Well-Known Member

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    Royals has stayed true to the functions it started with. This is why it retains its playerbase and popularity as the best private server, as many here keep returning to experience the gameplay they know and love.

    Such a change should be considered once/if Bera is released instead.
     
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  4. Lion
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    Lion Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: May 23, 2020 at 9:17 PM
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  5. Ayane
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    Ayane Well-Known Member

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    hmm it's kinda true I guess, I made a new paladin (around lvl 160 now) and I don't really have a good sword (I got like 128 atk lol) or range and when I ask to join some random party for HT they say bring NL instead or that im too low lvl etc o.o
    Also in krex I can only find trios mostly if I join alone which give low exp (and they usually have weak people/people dc so it takes the same time like a duo or longer lol) and I won't be getting nx/ring or anything
    But when I bring mules like BS or si/se etc I don't have that much trouble joining HT runs or recruiting krex/shaolin duo
     
  6. CerealnOats
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    I don't quite see how limiting mules in bossing will promote a more inclusive Royals. The people who do it to the extreme are already in it for max efficiency, so the chance of them picking up a newbie in light of this change is still next to zero. If they HAVE to bring more people in due to the limit, these extra persons will probably have their range heavily scrutinised. Since most of them already do have a bishop that they'd use for HS mule previously, they could also just end up taking turns being HS for runs. (The people i know that do this have no problems dealing with inconvenience if it still means better profit/h)

    I also want to add that there are more than just monetary reasons that people don't want randoms in their party. As previously stated, looters, dc-ers ruin runs. These days I almost exclusively join runs with people I know, because for whatever reasons, the random HT runs I join via smega recruits somehow just fails miserably with (surprise, surprise) SE dc or bishop dying. We just do runs ranging from trios(zak) / quads(ht) to 6 mans depending on friends that are available.

    For public runs, people bring mules to make themselves more "recruitable" than the next. It's another way to stand out besides the standard dps check that's otherwise already imposed on popular boss runs.

    A change like this would lead to more runs needing BS and SE for sure. As a former BS main the only real problem I had was getting into a krex run for ring back when I was starting out. Even then I felt bad just sitting there in the run doing nothing, looking at the low level dpsers who probably needed the rings themselves. I can't imagine many BS out there who'd want to do a jump quest then sit in a 40min-1hr toad run just to hs even if they were compensated with loots, but i could be wrong.

    Also I just realised this is basically what @resum already said hah. Good post. ^_^'
     
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  7. kyoko3102
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    kyoko3102 Well-Known Member

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    1) I only play with my friends in a group of 3 or 4 , so it is necessary to have mules to buff for certain contents to be doable

    2) People are contradicting themselves by: mules are unfair !! but i want more exp, duo shaolin ! duo krex ! bs can eat bs

    The main take away: in this ideal maple world , you work more = you deserve more

    I know TS is frustrated because of the constant rejection from public parties. Advice: Make friends who is your level in terms of character level and funding level, who cares if the boss run takes a little longer to complete, you had fun.

    Shhh, dont tell those BS-s that toad drops 2* 5k 50% of the time
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020 at 12:25 AM
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  8. Goji
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    Goji Well-Known Member

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    I partially agree with you. However, there's some issues I'd like to address:

    Efficiency is only as good you let it be so if we change anything, there will always be a 'most efficient method' of doing anything even if its better or worse than the previous. That being said, I agree you wouldn't be inclined to pick a noob or randoms when bossing but the thing is, with the proposed changes, you'd see fewer boss runs as you'd have to recruit more people than before and focus on job, bossing experience and dps (arguably in that particular order) so yep, sometimes you'd actually pick up a newbie cause you simply have to if you don't want to waste any more time and need that juicy SE or HS. I believe Maplestory is meant to be a social game which is almost enforced in both PQs and end-game bossing as different jobs offer niche party/solo skills which makes them desirable. Mules encourage solo play and go against that core Maplestory-purpose so I'm personally mainly against them. I also believe party play (proper party play that is) encourages you to make friends and slowly build mini communities which ultimately means you'll get more enjoyment out of the game. You could build a bossing guild with a bunch of your newbie friends, slowly getting better as opposed to having yourself and maybe a friend with 3 clients each furiously pressing on keys to take down zak in 5 minutes**. To me at least, this isn't what OG Maplestory represents.

    On a side note, I think failing a boss run is part of the game. I understand it sucks when it happens but not everything has to be 'perfect' nor do we have to win every time. I believe it would also make bossing more rewarding (both 'emotionally' and in actual profits) rather than your typical 'just another day' boss run. As for dc'ers, I believe the Staff is working on making bossing stable (by trying to avoid dcing) and as for looters, I believe it collides with my 'not everything has to be perfect' argument. This sort of behavior gets you in the black list and if you do it many times, chances are you won't be able to partake in many boss runs in the future. It's part of the game the same way those who scam leech can only get away with it for so long.

    Bottom line I think these changes
    • encourage social interactions which is what this game is about.
    • make bossing much more rewarding after a fail/success streak.
    • make drops way more valuable as there are fewer runs available + higher chance of failing.
    • makes place for jobs commonly used as mules. Nobody even recruits 'BM's or MM's anymore. They recruit 'SE'.
    What we're giving up:
    • our time when organizing a boss run.
    • maximum efficiency
    • elitism to some degree.
    ----------------------------------------

    ** Story time: I was cpqing (CPQ2) a few months ago on my sin and loved the party play experience I got. As a sin I played for fun, I didn't have a zhelm and wasn't washing so it was really rewarding having a cleric follow me around to heal me. We did some pqs together and eventually partied up with a spearman too, which was great (I imagine you know the reason). I actually added this person to my BL after we got to talking - mainly after telling her how great she was as a cleric. And yeah, I could work on a cleric on par with my sin and have him sit there while I kill stuff and get heals when needed. It may be more convenient for me efficiency-wise to help myself with a second character but I'd much rather have someone else to play with than do it solo.

    Anyway, let me know what you think.
     
  9. UrbanJuggernaut
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    In theory, its a great idea and sounds like it makes the game more inclusive and social but in reality you're just inflating boss run prices for noobs and making range checks even more stringent than they already are. As said before, the people bringing 3+ mules to bosses are obviously already in it for efficiency, they're just going to form cliques with other powerful players (like they already do) and increase price of Zhelm/HTP/MoN because they're now forced to bring more people and it takes much longer to form a squad to even go.
     
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  10. CerealnOats
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    CerealnOats Well-Known Member

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    I don't really understand what you mean by mules encourage solo play. If you mean people who solo zak/krex/ht, those instances are the minority that took things to an extreme - because they can. Muling certainly enabled them to do it, I wouldn't say encourage. After all, there is a reason why there are far greater number of people who prefer to do bosses in a party than to solo, even if they technically could solo it. In other words, there is far more party play going around in the server than there is solo play, even with the ability to mule.

    Personally, I'm at the point where I'm just online to spend time with friends. Most of us already have multiple chars which at some point were our mains before or are currently trying out a new char (SE, SI, HS, HB you name it). With the limitation, we can still fall back to using these "mules" as mains without the inclusion of strangers, simply because we don't want to. Many of us that are working have limited time online as it is, we're not newbies and we've experienced enough of the "not perfect runs" to know that is exactly what we don't want to be dealing with after a long day. Even then no single run is ever guaranteed to be perfect. We've also got an extensive enough network of friends to recruit somebody someone knows to fill in.

    When you talk about "proper party play", I really don't think muling is the reason people currently prefer NL/sairs over other classes when they are looking for attackers to do zak/krex/ht. Buffs like SI and total crash are really just for better QoL, it wouldn't make them a must bring class just because muling is disallowed. NLs will still be meta and the preferred class before it trickles down to whichever attacker option the recruiter is left with. SE is currently already in demand and will continue to be more so after this change. If a bowman/marksman has enough runs to do now, they will have more than enough runs to do after. Which is why I did agree that SE/BS would be needed even more with the limitation. Many people that are currently in favour of this change, however, seem to somehow be in the mindset that suddenly other classes will be widely accepted if this change comes, like a magical solution that has only dawned upon us now after so many years.

    My advice to anyone out there struggling to join a run or think they're being shunned because they don't have a mule is to join a decent guild. Make friends. Heck, recruit your own mule-less runs (power to you!). Like the previous person mentioned, get to know people of similar level or funding level as yourself, don't try to compare what you have to someone who has played years longer than you. If people like you, no mule or range would even matter.
     
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  11. Tect
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    Tect Well-Known Member

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    still waiting for my atkers to be strong enuf for my solo cwkpq run :( no mule ban pls
     
  12. Ohad
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    Yes limit everything
     
  13. Ohad
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    It’s unfair when people bring their mules cause I wanna bring my own mules and I can’t wtf??
     
  14. sparky95
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    I see strong and fair arguments from the opposing parties concerning the easier recruitment of buff classes. I gotta agree with them to an extent since disabling mules won't really provide more job opportunities to already coveted classes.

    I agreed to this idea because I thought it would slow down the power creep in the server. Muling allows everyone to save their time and kill more raid bosses at a faster pace. Finding and recruiting the runners with adequate buffs is supposed to be part of the challenge in the bossing scene. With mules, this concept becomes meaningless as high DPS is all you require on top of the mule army to meet the criteria. Some said that veterans will still only run with their circle of friends but hey, they won't be around you forever in the same time zone. You will often find yourself in a situation where you need to spend extra time/sweat searching for a well mannered, English comprehending buff provider via smega.

    There is an increasing number of experienced boss runners in royals, in a stagnantly stacking fashion, which could have been caused either by cheating or appealing end game contents - that I don't know. Nearly every serious and experienced players, including my self, naturally seek the most profitable and efficient bossing setting which inevitably entails a mule or two. If the muling system becomes disabled, the entire bossing scene will slow down by a beat. Look at how common rare boss/PQ drops and the runners have become. I find the current state of royals providing a bit too much of a convenience, esp with mules, that allows power creep to speed race toward the stagnant pool. I wish we can slow down everything so the server can last longer and in a healthy way.
     
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  15. ioopy
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    Increase in my blood pressure is directly correlated to the number of randoms in my party. So I vote no for health related reasons.

    Everyone has the opportunity to make his/her own mules like 'better players'. If you prefer a more social approach to bossing, you have the choice every reset to make your own diverse party with people who feel the same way about mulestory.
     
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  16. Goji
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    Goji Well-Known Member

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    I'll just reply to each paragraph with one of my own, here it goes:

    You don't understand how mules encourage solo play? Okay, my bad, I didn't word it correctly. It doesn't encourage solo play, it discourages party play. What I mean by this is bosses can be done with two people and six chars whereas with the proposed changes, you'd see six people and six chars (or perhaps fewer participants, who knows). As for party quests, you can do most PQs on your own by muling instead of actually inviting players. You can leech yourself to 135 with your hs mule instead of recruiting a priest. Mules solve every inconvenience the game throws at you - in an attempt to force you to socialize- while minimizing interaction and heck yeah, it definitely is easier to mule. Taking this stance also means playing any job with low dps and party skills is out the table: you can create a mule and there goes any shred of desirability any class has. That being said, I ask you this: What do you think will happen in two years time?
    Here's what I think: It's 2022 and I don't play buccaneer as nobody will want me on their boss run because it doesn't have optimal DPS and SI is meaningless cause they'd just bring a mule. How do I become desirable then? DPS+having mules. Okay then, DPS = NL and Sair. Mules = HS, SE, SI. Now, tell me you think this won't happen...

    Addressing your second point, I agree. You can play your old characters as mains, you don't want to jeopardize the boss run's success rate, you don't want to go through doomed-to-fail runs and you don't invite any strangers. You're absolutely right, what you say is exactly what I'd do. I'd go ask my friends, who I know they won't cause any trouble. The only difference is, instead of you playing your Bishop and NL at the same time, you should fetch a bishop if you want HS. Surely one of your friends has a bishop and knows how boss mechanics work. You said it yourself, if you have a vast network of friends (and acquaintances) then just invite 'em over to your party. I'm not saying you should invite newbies to your boss runs. I'm saying invite whoever helps you achieve your goal faster and reward them for their help - even if its QoL or not. Also, nothing is technically required when bossing; SE, SI, HS, Haste are QoL things too. If you want to take advantage of these buffs, you have to invite someone to help you with that. If you don't mind giving them up, then don't invite 'em. What these changes propose is adding value to actually playing a class.

    Third paragraph. Yeah, muling isn't the reason everyone prefers NL/sairs over other classes but it certainly helps. Here's how: "J>Zak. Level 165 NL. Have SE and HS mules". Lets translate it: 'Hey, I have the best dps in-game AND the best party skills available. I also count as one player instead of three - I won't hog half the exp'. Now that's desirable. You and your 3 sair friends would be happy to recruit this guy instead of a solo BM or bucc. See how that works? While other classes offer 'QoL' buffs and are not required simply means they'll be less desirable than other classes but not completely nullified by muling. And yes, many people in favour of this change believe suddenly other classes will be widely accepted because they will. You said it yourself for Bishops, Marksmen, and Bowmasters. Now, if 2-3 attackers benefit from SI, then surely they'd invite a Bucc if they get the chance, right? Bottomline, preferring one class or the other will be determined by how you're building your party instead of how many players you can play at once.
     
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  17. tannerama
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    Ban mules. Hardcore players can still make more money. Instead of running h/t twice with all of your mules. Run twice with each character separately. Even if it’s the same group of people just rotating classes...
     
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  18. Ezequiell
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    Ezequiell Well-Known Member

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    I would honestly just ban mules.
     
  19. malulu1234
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    I think that when i started a Hero. Wasnt welcome no where. But after i started selling leech. Having hs mule Nd open a crash nule. Finally could go into parties. Taking off mule option will only hurt new players. Cyz the 7.5k Nl + dont bring mules cuz they strong enough and the weaker Bucc/Nl/dk and more need to bring mule to get even. Just like the NL nerf. This idea will hurt the new players. Not the expirenced player that above avg now
     
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  20. Tect
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    Tect Well-Known Member

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    Oh ye. Wldnt this force ppl to have to buy helm/sb/htp service even if they're perfectly capable of runnig the boss n getting it for free? Seems like a waste of money to me -.-'
     

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