Feedback Thread: Wulin Yaoseng

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by Matt, Sep 15, 2020.

?

What changes would you make to the boss Wulin Yaoseng?

  1. Increase the HP

  2. Increase the HP and EXP (but nerf the HP:EXP ratio)

  3. Shorten the Timer

  4. Reduce the EXP

  5. None

  6. Other (Please clarify in the comments below)

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Derrxck
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    Derrxck Donator

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    Honestly the exp for shao is excellent for low lvls attackers but at the same time it's kinda high for higher lvl players aswell. I dont know , I say just leave it as it is.
     
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  2. Joong
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    Joong Developer

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    On a personal level, while I may understand that many will disagree with me, I would hope that everyone who votes takes a moment to consider if the balance of this content is reasonable and makes sense for the game as a whole, or if it potentially renders other things obsolete to an excessive extent. Is faster always better for the game? I do enjoy reading the different analyses so far.

    Wulin Yaoseng: 1.95:1 HP:EXP ratio (after 3.2x multiplier)
    Krexel: 8.68:1 HP:EXP ratio (after 3.2x multiplier)

    445% better? :)

    Valid. However, one change does not exclude other changes. In some cases, changes may be more straightforward and with fewer consequences / controversies attached to them. In a case like this, we thought it appropriate to ask. Feel free to theorycraft and help us brainstorm on what's healthy for the game, and how to keep it balanced.
     
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  3. Kepler
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    U can do krex twice a day and it also gives end game ring, while shao is pure exp. IMO its ok that we have at least one boss that can be killed in no time and gives u small progress towards 200. Usually when u wanna get exp from bosses u need a party, it takes like 1h for 2x krex and ~3h for 2x ht to get ppl and kill a boss.
    @KungLee mentioned bishop, cmon bish is like easiest class to lvl + u can get meso while lvling which is kinda op nerf bish >:D, also not every class is made for every boss there is.
     
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  4. Skit Venom
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    Skit Venom Member

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    My thought is that you force a minimal party requirement similar to PQ's.
     
  5. qwertylll
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    qwertylll Active Member

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    I don't see the real need to change anything given the current difficulty in levelling at high levels due to daily boss run limitations. While most people prefer to duo shao, increasingly it is common for trio parties due to new attackers needing HB and also because unfunded DRK and low level range attackers do not deal enough damage without separating the clones. Personally I prefer trio too as it removes the need to use apples which are kinda costly in my opinion.

    I agree that shao is an incentive to play royals for working people who are unable to afford as much time to play royals as it is a good source of exp that allows them to login daily and party with other people to boss.

    If the idea is to incentivise more people partying up to boss, perhaps including a quest exp reward or item reward that scales according to party size/damage dealt (to prevent people from abusing this with mules) can be considered.
     
  6. silv
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    silv Donator

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    Just from simple balance/design standpoint, the exp of shao doesn't feel consistent with what the rest of the game offers. Even if the exp were halved, I think it would still be a daily must-run for people trying to level - that should mean that shao is very overpowered in its current state. For me, it definitely trivialized a large part of my leveling process from 160-199 (maybe >30% of my total exp came from shao?), and 200 honestly doesn't feel like such a big achievement anymore compared to the old source. A highway to 200 probably has an adverse impact on the longevity of the game - to me, this is probably the biggest problem with shao.

    However, here are some things I really like about shao, that I hope are kept to some extent:

    - Interesting mechanics with shao clones: this is pretty unique to shao and I think the design is relatively interactive (the only other similar boss mechanic are probably the imperial guards in NT I think)

    - Small party: some bosses are meant to run with a full pt (e.g. Zak/HT), and some are to be run with a smaller pt (e.g. Pap/Shao), and I really enjoy the current diversity offered

    - Short time limit: again, some bosses are meant to take a long time and others a short amount of time, and again I think diversity is good here, especially since most bosses err on the long side

    - Alternative to krex: without shao, krex is probably the most consistent source of exp for an attacker (pre-HT), but imo krex is just a terribly designed and un-engaging boss, despite having loads of exp and an end-game ring locked behind it (you know a boss is poorly designed when you have to pull up Youtube or Netflix on the side to not feel like a waste of time)

    - Solo potential: feel free to disagree, but I think "solo shao" was a motivating and nontrivial milestone to work towards during my character progression (this is very job-dependent and hard to balance though)

    Personally, I'd think some nerf on the time-spent-to-exp ratio would be good, to make shao a little less efficient. Instead of reducing exp (which I voted for), maybe a daily quest to enter with collecting untradeables/one-of-a-kinds could work as well, without needing to tweak the boss too much.

    I understand that people are naturally averse to nerfs, but I wish more people can look at this objectively instead of finding ways to rationalize against a change just because it takes away some "convenience" they've enjoyed/feel entitled to.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
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  7. Amaranthen
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    My proposed changes:
    1. Increase boss level to 155/160/165

    2. Reduce unavoidable magic damage to 10k/11k (more unwashed or lightly washed bowman at higher levels could participate)

    3. Make 12k magic attack avoidable.
     
  8. weirdomonkey
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    weirdomonkey Well-Known Member

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    I feel that most of the technicalities of shao are in a good place:
    1. the need for a "rusher" to separate clones is a great mechanic that makes shao a more inclusive boss to more classes
    2. the difficulty is at a good spot: pretty much anyone can duo with apples, and most are able to do it on stoppers. also as @silv mentioned, being able to solo is a fun milestone that I was proud to achieve when I could finally do it, so I feel its good that its possible
    3. its a low-fuss boss that's easy to organise and fast to finish, which is appealing for many reasons
    4. unfortunately, hp washing is mandatory for ranged classes for shao, as you need at least 7.5k hp before HB to tank the 12k attack, which is a hp mark that you won't reach naturally until 18x even with the hp quest and hp buffing eq. Perhaps making the 12k attack avoidable like others have said would make the boss viable and at the same time more engaging

    due to these points, I feel that if changes were to be made to shao, it would be best to play into these strengths even more. My suggestion is to decrease the exp given from shao, but redistribute about half the decreased amount among the clones. On one hand this will solve the perceived problem of shao being too OP, while promoting even more class diversity, with lower level parties pretty much requiring a warrior if they want to get the full amount of xp. At the same time, not finishing up the clones will still be a viable strategy as the bulk of the xp will still come from the main boss
     
  9. Pedro Oliveira
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    Pedro Oliveira Well-Known Member

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    I think it's a bit off topic but soon I might create a feedback thread about this:
    What if you nerf krex exp and buff scar/Targa? Just because krex is hella boring. Also scar and Targa hits harder with magic damage so hb would be maybe needed and a melee is always good to have there with the classic NLs?It's just harder to do and should be rewarded with more exp. I just think it's way harder and more fun to do a scarga targa run rather than a krex run which is literally pressing 1 key while you afk.

    I think shao is fine, its my favorite boss to run, please focus on the bosses less rewarding like scarga and tokyo stuff and launch new content instead!
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
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  10. Al3x
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    Al3x Well-Known Member

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    increase hp and make it less braindead for a more involving and social game play. This does not only go for shaolin but other bosses as well. aka adjusting the current main bosses to be challenging while having substantial rewards.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
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  11. Cooler
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    Can make it 4+ minimum party signups, increased exp and shared exp, more or no timer, and maybe he drops erasers or something of actual split value

    Adding more clones that are holy immune or flying holy immune/w.att immune mobs so arch mages are required would be great for them!

    Even adjust the shared exp so hs isn't needed, why not give arch mages a place to shine and bs a break? Or bs can't enter? No res is a good challenge
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
  12. Carriecheng
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    Carriecheng Well-Known Member

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    It is funny to see a lot of pro players saying shao is easy, solo/duo is not a challenge at all, 10mins are too much.
    Do you expect to do quad/5man/6man shao? Otherwise, there are also many players can only do trio, or even cant do shao at all.
     
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  13. raiueh
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    raiueh Well-Known Member

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    if you nerf wulins exp pls also adjust the prequest for him. as it is long and tedious, with the only real reward being the huge chunk of exp wulin gives.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
  14. xDarkomantis
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    xDarkomantis Well-Known Member

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    [-] Does Shao offer a big chunk of exp? Yes. Does it offer it without much investment? If we check by say, tiers of players:
    • Casual players: Low-funded and poor gear and may/may not require HB. Uses an apple per Shao. May usually in the rare opportunity do Trio Shao or Duo Shao if a strong friend/guildie/random is going to carry them through.
    • Core players: Has decent funding and mid-game equips and HP washed to a certain extent, typically without needing HB (yet some players may need or have HB mule). Uses an apple per Shao or Heartstoppers at higher levels with certain partners. Primarily Duo Shaos and can possibly solo with certain classes but primarily sticks with Duos.
    • Hardcore players: High funding and godly equips and has played a long time / HP washed excessively. Uses an apple per Shao or Heartstoppers at higher levels with certain partners. Uses an Apple / Heartstoppers per Shao depending on class. Probably solos Shao with an apple or at times Duos with others (either of out preference to save on apples or to help out others/partner) with Heartstoppers.
    I think for a good portion of players, going by Trio ~ Duo, apples are regularly used until one is funded/high level enough to get by with stoppers in Duos (that's not including any accidental deaths/disconnects/etc). Players have also used their time and funding to HP wash so that they can regularly do Shao and more than likely made a Bishop/Archmage or did countless APQs/Merching to get to that point (exceptions being unwashed Shadowers / Warriors / Buccaneers).

    So is it without much investment? I'd say that it does require investment.

    [-] The Staff is interested in [...] if [Shao] can be reworked into something a little more involving and social? Clarification of what this means is needed as it's a bit vague.

    Is the Staff wanting to force Quad-attack parties for Shao? Or maybe Trio-attack parties to be the meta? Keep in mind that with the current Duo Shao meta, Shao is already socially done with a partner that consists of either a friend/buddy/guildie. At the far end you'd have to go to an alliance member or smega for a random attacker. It can already be a struggle to Shao without anyone having an HS mule and as of recent weeks/months, it can be difficult to attract a Bishop to come HS for drops. (Note: I personally had moments where I smega'd for Bishop to HS for drops+40m and no one wanted to come).

    If the Staff is interested in making Shao more difficult by introducing more mechanics to Shao, I think it'd be interesting.

    [-] Voting Poll Options

    Let me list out the HP:EXP of certain bosses (if I'm wrong on any of them please let me know):

    (taken from hiddenstreet)
    Papulatus: [8.03:1] 23,000,000 HP : 2,860,800 EXP
    Zakum: [9.54:1] 482,100,000 HP : 50,498,560 EXP (may not be right exp/ratio)
    Krex: [8.68:1] 500,000,000 HP : ~57,604,000(?) EXP (taken from Joong)
    Scarlion/Targa: [15.5:1] 300,000,000 HP : 19,353,600 EXP
    Scarlion+Targa (both in corner): [~7.75-11.62:1] ~300,000,000-450,000,000 HP : 37,707,200 EXP
    Horntail: [7.93:1] 2,730,000,000 HP : 344,146,432 EXP (not sure on this so I pulled from ilyssia's chart)
    Toad: [6.98:1] 1,070,000,000 HP : 153,120,000 exp
    The Boss (total): [7.84:1] 1,050,000,000 HP : 133,760,000 (may not be right exp/ratio)
    --
    Shao: [1.95:1] 100,000,000 HP : 51,200,000

    ===============

    Notable Rewards:

    Papulatus: 5k nx card
    Zakum: Zakum Helmet, Chaos Scroll, Genesis 20, 1~2x 5k nx cards
    Krex: Almighty Ring, 5k nx card
    Scarlion/Targa: Scarlion/Targa Helmets, 1~2 5k nx cards
    Horntail: Horntail Pendant, Dragon Weapons, Maple Warrior 20, Genesis 30, Triple Throw 30, 1~4 5k nx cards
    Toad: Ninja Toad Headband, 1~2x 5k nx cards
    The Boss: Shogun Earrings, Gold Emerald Earring, Violent Snowshoes, 5k nx card
    ----
    Shao: 5k nx card

    =============

    Commonly used attack potions:

    Papulatus: Warrior Elixir, Cider, Energizer, Heartstopper
    Zakum: Energizer, Heartstopper, 1x Onyx Apple
    Krex: Energizer, Heartstopper, 1x Onyx Apple or 2x Onyx Apple, Heartstopper
    Scarlion/Targa: Energizer, Heartstopper, 1x Apple
    Horntail: 4~6 Onyx Apples/Chocolate Gelts, Heartstopper
    Toad: 3~4x Onyx Apples, Heartstopper
    The Boss: (not sure but I assume some quantity of Onyx Apples mixed with Heartstoppers)
    ----
    Shao: 1x Onyx Apple or Heartstopper
    _____________________________________________________________________________________________

    So after listing the HP:Ratio, rewards, and commonly used attack potions, Shao doesn't seem to offer much besides it's big chunk of exp in comparison to other bosses. I don't think Shao needs to be touched or excessively nerfed if the Staff is leaning towards that direction. In my opinion, if I was forced to nerf Shao, my suggestions would be:
    • Slightly reduce the exp of Shao by 10~15% & maybe redirect some exp from Shao to Shao Clones as well as increase Shao Clone levels from 140 -> 150 (to encourage killing Shao+Shao Clones rather than Shao only for big rewards)
    • Increase the difficulty of the Boss through introducing more mechanics to it
    My vote is for Shao to not be touched.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2020 at 3:35 AM
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  15. Dabsta
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    Dabsta Well-Known Member

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    I like the idea of distributing shao's exp among his clones, multi attackers such as drks and heroes will benefit so meta nls might consider bringing them to runs.
     
  16. Ayane
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    Ayane Well-Known Member

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    I think it's kinda fair though?
    Most bosses like krex, ht etc all favor NLs and it's just NL story, while shaolin actually breaks the meta and unpopular classes like shad and paladin actually excel there (there is also neo tokyo for melee but it's not that rewarding and got a very long questline)
    It's also challenging to beat it in 10 minutes and isn't a boring boss like krex and other bosses like that
     
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  17. UrbanJuggernaut
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    This just seems so...random? Like of all the things to be worried about, this seems like it should be last on the list. Shao is not the content that needs retuning...hes just a big chunk of exp on a DPS check timer, with some engagement required to handle the clones. His EXP:HP ratio is high because thats all he offers...EXP. I think he fits a fine role in anybody's daily runs, as trio (low lvl/funding), duo (standard), or solo (high level/funding). Its social enough as it is. Not every boss needs to be 6 man run, nor do they all need to have some special item(s) you can only get from them. Shao is the only pure EXP instanced boss, and is already limited to 1 run per day. He still requires investment in HP, gear and/or att pots, and requires 1-2 other people generally. This just seems like a change for the sake of changing something.

    Instead of trying to retroactively fit content that is already fine as it is with a forced party play requirement, fix existing content and continue to release higher level, party centric content to satisfy those wishes. Most of Neo Tokyo is a trashcan, essentially nobody runs any part of it except select groups running Auf and the once in a blue moon Dunas v1, and that content is already set up to require party play and heavily limits muling.
     
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