In Discussion Bossing [Feedback Request] Von Leon

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by Zancks, Oct 25, 2022.

  1. fuzzything44
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    fuzzything44 Donator

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    Fair, although staying in a 1k range seems absurdly annoying. I don't play DK though, so not sure.

    Yeah it was a long shot... would be nice though, even if it has to like repurpose /all chat

    Strong agree with this

    As for summons, the more I think about it, the more I'm thinking hardskin is counterproductive to the goal of them. Sure, it means each party needs SE, but SE gives warriors a 15% crit rate. That's still really bad vs mobs, which kind of makes melee useless vs them once it's up...
     
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  2. Jooon
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    I agree with your concerns. its alittle weird for players to get a 7luk auf helm, and hexa mage farm until its completed.

    But hey, the difference here is where an Auf helm, it can only go up and up, Von Leon Belt’s scroll is still a CS. Meaning to say that players must constantly run VL for a belt, to eventually cs a 6-10wa belt, and depending on your luck, you might need 10-20 belts or alot more if the player wants to be really satisfied with one.

    Including those who just starts off with -1 or -2 you’d just toss them away.

    This will encourage players to keep running von leon, farm burning energy and totems, buy more belts from their runs. Aim to cs a high base stats one, there will be so much buying and selling opportunities, market demand, more splits.

    Does this not sound better comparing to them staying as untradeables?

    And make burning energy tradeable. Now melee classes can make good mesos without selling skele leech, or multimage ulu/yeti farm too!
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2022
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  3. Rielle
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    I'm still not too convinced that the pros outweigh the cons here, precisely because of the first point you mentioned. Imagine your teammate loots a belt, then you don't hear from them for any future runs until their belt goes kaput. Opening another medium where players can buy their progression is just a repeat of how auf helm came to be. It would arguably be even quicker to progress considering many will settle for any clean belt and cs it from there. Personally, I would like to take progression in a different direction this time, where a player actually has to power through a new challenging content rather than meso-farming their way up again. If the issue is that it may take too long to get a decent belt, then that's a different debate.

    While it may be opening up a new market with new items to trade, I'd rather see something where players upgrade by participating in end-game content more often than not. I do see some of your points for making non-mage farming more equitable, so maybe we can agree on a compromise!
     
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  4. Jooon
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    Trying new directions, and something different than the norms, I can accept that.

    I would really love to see myself excited, participating in Von Leon runs on a weekly basis after belt completion and not thinking,
    - Why am i wasting my time in VL when I can just sell skele leech?

    Would you run horntail after your HTP is done?
    - Yes. Why?

    Now, the tradeable reward isn’t enough to satisfy anyone’s hunger, yet it’s difficult to balance where it eventually creates a meta where everyone make 5-6 sub attackers and farm VL endlessly.

    Is this something “new”/“different” that you envision to build, possible without creating this new market?

    The solutions i hear, new gloves, new shoes.
    We are swimming in dangerous waters here.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2022
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  5. lxlx
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    lxlx Well-Known Member

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    i mean... if you can get a 8-10 att belt with high primary stats from just selling skele leech, then something is wrong with the game design. -.-' also, i think von leon is decent in terms of profit for now. it really depends on the organizer's way of splitting the loots. I don't think that profits should be the main incentive for doing VL though, it should always be about either finishing the belt or improving it *that's why the belts are not one-of-a-kind*. Also, since the squads that can clear VL with 18 man right now are stil fairly limited, it's gonna turn into that sort of situation where the rich get richer kind of thing if the rewards were made more lucrative.

    I like the current set up of having untradeable scrolls, belt and medallion. It gives players that want to improve their character an incentive to run VL over and over again. My only feedback about the untradeables would be that i think parchment should have a slightly higher drop count than the belt and medallion because at some point, it would be the most sought after untradeable in VL. It's one-of-a-kind anyway so players can't mass hoard them.

    Also, fwiw, i had a similar design suggestion about auf helm a year ago, but at that time auf was already out for too long for any realistic change. I'm just glad VL belt didn't follow the same trend as auf helm. Big fan of the current belt progression design.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2022 at 1:34 AM
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  6. HikariNoPuri
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    The drops are really lackluster for the amount of people required to clear. If the fear is that elite 18 man or less squads clear then give instanced drops in the forms of totems or some other new "currency" that can be exchanged for drops or additional crafting. This can be done by having some repeatable "defeat Von Leon" quest if it's too much trouble to deal with instanced drops. This way whatever drops now can be hedged as a reward for people heavily investing in their characters but at the same time not make it too punishing for bigger VL squads (as they both lower the split and increase the cost of the run via apples / att pots spent). I don't think the drops need to be lucrative, but they need to be better to incentivize people to run once they finish their belt / don't care about belt (cough bishops / people playing on secondaries &/or tertiaries just to fill party composition). I already see some enthusiasm fading for VL, but it still remains healthy as it's still fresh content.
     
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  7. Jooon
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    Players are able to +20 Auf helm just from skele leech or heck NX boss hunting definitely isn’t the perfect design.

    My point here is it creates a market where everyone can buy and sell scrolls, and there will be a strong open market demand for it. Resulting in active mesos exchange.
    • Rich players will purchase VL CS and scroll them immediately after the VL run.
    • Players who trains in LHC gets totems & burning energy, and would be able to craft and buy coins & parchments to sell Von Leon Soul & Von Leon Chaos Scrolls.
    • Theres still a very strong reason to continue running after the group finishes the belt.
    • There will be more Mesos circulating around the game.
    You’re still required to reloot the untradeable belts and run VL if its turns bad, and players wouldn’t be just satisfied with a 5-7wa belts.
    But one with high stats, and well grinded weapon attack.

    Solid mesos profits is the main reason why players pushes to participate in team activities.

    Players will be looking forward for this weekly activity, excited to finish the week come home for it!! Creating creative ideas on how to minmax the run for better rewards.
    Instead of, oh.. i’m just help my friend upgrade his belt for a mediocre split.

    Richer gets stronger yes. How much stronger, not much. Haha.
    Richer gets richer? Hmm. I’d disagree to this, we’ll be the ones buying the parchments if its tradeable no? New & mid tier players should be able to clear it too once they mastered the mechanics.

    All that disagreements aside, i still believe theres alot more points that we can agree to, and i would love that both Von Leon mechanics & rewards can be improved.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2022 at 1:00 AM
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  8. fuzzything44
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    An alternative to dealing with mobs, that forces bringing melee attackers AND se, without buffing NLs:

    This might not be possible with current client edits, but if so could help a lot with mobs.

    Add a new potion, fairly easy to acquire, with low duration (maybe 15-20 seconds? The point is that people shouldn't be manually canceling it after mobs die). This pot converts critical damage into critical rate. In other words, it completely nerfs any NL that uses it, but for regular attackers, instead of critting for 140% dmg (1.4x) 15% of the time (so 1.4 * .15 = 0.21% of regular dmg against hardskin mobs), they'll crit for 100% dmg (1x, so no change on crits) 55% of the time (40 + 15), roughly doubling their damage on hardskin (as long as they have SE).

    This allows you to significantly increase hardskin duration to enforce SE, while keeping melee classes able to do actual amounts of damage.
     
  9. KungLee
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    KungLee Well-Known Member

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    This is definitely becoming a "Richer gets richer" content, its absolutely clear to see by now.

    There is simply no opportunity for new or mid players and anyone else outside the few elite guilds, to ever run a VL at the moment. It just will not happen.
    Hence this boss is now exclusively for the richest and most elite players to become even richer.

    I am just saying, this thing here is not a community thing - it is elite content for the richest players out there.

    The 18-people minmax thingy solidifies this even more!

    I dont even want to say this is bad - after all these players need their extreme content so it is good to have content after all.

    One just has to be realistic and see how it is and not romantisize about non-elite players outside of these secluded elite groups having a chance of doing this boss as it stands and as it is developping to become. It is kind of the same with Auf though but in a different way.

    It is clear to see that now, the richest players will get even richer much more just by having these exclusive elite drops.

    No casual team will ever roll in and beat this boss just like that. This will not happen ever!

    It is not about the mechanics you guys all brag about so much. It is much more the fact that there will never be enough non-elite players that are good enough to clear it. And the elite guys do not take outsiders into their runs. This is just how it is on royals, I am not saying this is bad.

    But I think it is not productive to draw romantic fairytales here
     
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  10. OneHashim
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    I think you've jumped the gun a bit, even on an 18 man minmax run the money you make given the cost of running doesn't seem to be extravagant. And the drops will only decrease in value as more people run, the rarity of items so far is what's keeping the prices up, it will wear off soon.

    And as far as only elites running this, I don't think that's the case, there are quite a few guilds and open vl groups that are clearing this boss regularly. None of the runs I've been on have range checked me, as long as people had the hp to run it it seemed to be fine. I have met quite a few people joining up on runs, it looks like people are eager to recruit, don't think this is some exclusive club for elites. Broaden your horizon, make some new friends and I'm sure you can get into runs. Casual players can complete this boss, but it's not going to be as easy as recruiting by smega.
     
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  11. fuzzything44
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    Couldn't sleep so I guess I'm writing this up. In a video of the in-game feedback session, I saw a lot of support for an individual bonus room, which is a good way to scale loot in a fun way! Here's my take on how to do it:

    Room has 10 chests with a generous 2 minute timer so you're not stressed (I HATE trio bon in cwk). Each class gets customized drops, whether the rooms are the same layout or not is to you.

    Drops will be listed in amount per chest, then average per full bonus

    1-4 (25) Burning energy
    1-3 (20) Purification Totem
    5k-10k (75k) Mesos
    1k-5k (30k) Mesos
    25% (2.5) Crocky's Helmet
    25% (2.5) Reindeer's Spear
    25% (2.5) Bearwolf's Morning Star
    25% (2.5) Vulture's Shoulder Accessory

    10% (1) Pet Equip for Speed 30%
    10% (1) Pet Equip for Jump 30%
    5% (0.5) Glove for Attack 30%
    2.5% (0.25) Glove for Magic Attack 30%
    2.5% (0.25) Purification Totem x5
    A bunch of the standard weapons/equips that are added(red Cravens, nisrocks, concertos, etc)
    Maybe some ores/gems needed for royal projectile crafting, for flavor

    Warrior Only:
    5% (0.5) Spear for Attack 30%
    5% (0.5) Polearm for Attack 30%
    2.5% (0.25) 1h Sword for Attack 30%
    2.5% (0.25) 2h Sword for Attack 30%
    2.5% (0.25) 1h Axe for Attack 30%
    2.5% (0.25) 2h Axe for Attack 30%
    2.5% (0.25) 1h Mace for Attack 30%
    2.5% (0.25) 2h Mace for Attack 30%
    2.5% (0.25) Earrings for Str 30%
    2.5% (0.25) Overall for Str 30%

    Archer Only:
    5% (0.5) Bow for Attack 30%
    5% (0.5) Crossbow for Attack 30%
    2.5% (0.25) Earrings for Dex 30%
    2.5% (0.25) Overall for Dex 30%

    Mage Only:
    5% (0.5) Staff for Magic Attack 30%
    5% (0.5) Wand for Magic Attack 30%
    2.5% (0.25) Earrings for Int 30%
    2.5% (0.25) Overall for Int 30%

    Thief Only:
    5% (0.5) Claw for Attack 30%
    5% (0.5) Dagger for Attack 30%
    2.5% (0.25) Earrings for Luk 30%
    2.5% (0.25) Overall for Luk 30%

    Pirate Only:
    5% (0.5) Knuckle for Attack 30%
    5% (0.5) Gun for Attack 30%
    1.25% (0.125) Earrings for Str 30%
    1.25% (0.125) Overall for Str 30%
    1.25% (0.125) Earrings for Dex 30%
    1.25% (0.125) Overall for Dex 30%

    1% (0.1) Purification Totem x10
    1% (0.1) Shield for Attack 30%
    1% (0.1) Shield for Magic Attack 30%
    0.5% (0.05) The VL attack pot, whatever it's called

    Warrior Only:
    1% (0.1) Ring for Str 30%
    1% (0.1) Ring for Dex 30%
    1% (0.1) Ring for Str 70%
    1% (0.1) Ring for Dex 70%
    1% (0.1) Blue Dragon Armor (110 oa)
    1% (0.1) Ice Trinket (new item)

    Archer Only:
    1% (0.1) Ring for Str 30%
    1% (0.1) Ring for Dex 30%
    1% (0.1) Ring for Str 70%
    1% (0.1) Ring for Dex 70%
    1% (0.1) lv 110 oa
    1% (0.1) Lightning Trinket (new item)

    Mages Only:
    1% (0.1) Ring for Int 30%
    1% (0.1) Ring for Luk 30%
    1% (0.1) Ring for Int 70%
    1% (0.1) Ring for Luk 70%
    1% (0.1) Blue Czar (110 oa)
    1% (0.1) Holy Trinket (new item)

    Thief Only:
    1% (0.1) Ring for Luk 30%
    1% (0.1) Ring for Dex 30%
    1% (0.1) Ring for Luk 70%
    1% (0.1) Ring for Dex 70%
    1% (0.1) lv 110 oa
    1% (0.1) Fire Trinket (new item)

    Pirate Only:
    1% (0.1) Ring for Str 30%
    1% (0.1) Ring for Dex 30%
    1% (0.1) Ring for Str 70%
    1% (0.1) Ring for Dex 70%
    1% (0.1) lv 110 oa
    1% (0.1) Tarnished Ring (new item)

    Also including estimated average profit from these. Shouldn't be too high, just something to hope for. The main source of manuals should still be VL himself.
    If possible, a server announcement on one of these dropping would be nice

    0.05% (1/200) Purification Totem x500 (1m/totem = 2.5m)
    0.05% (1/200) Royal Bullet Forging Manual (3b = 15m)
    0.05% (1/200) Royal Quiver Forging Manual (2.4b = 12m)
    0.05% (1/200) Royal Throwing Knives Forging Manual (5b = 25m)

    = total of about 55m average from jackpots, at very generous prices.

    As for what the trinkets/tarnished ring are for, this is ring crafting similar to roa. Turning in the full set of 5 to Ifia gives you a tradable, unique equipped, allstat 2, 1 slot ring (Ifia's ring). I'd recommend level 150. 180 just is so high, but I wouldn't want under 135 as it'd be used for washing then.

    Edit: added some mob drops as more common stuff... after all surely there's a huge stockpile of armor for them somewhere.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2022 at 10:51 PM
  12. KungLee
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    KungLee Well-Known Member

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    Calling me stupid does not change the fact that I am telling you just the facts and nothing more.

    This is NOT a community thing here. Are you Lv200, strong char, HP-washed, etc. Well congratz, this already makes you elite.

    Where is all the R>1 more for VL smegas?

    There is NO ONE recruiting VL publically! If you want to join this boss you need to be very lucky to be able to join, maybe if you join a Discord server or a guild, you still need to be very lucky that they will take you.You need to do a few runs, you need to

    For instance for HT, you often see people looking just for one more to do their crew runs. For VL this is NOT the case!

    You saw QUITE SOME people? How many did you see? How many real new comers do you truly see? How many people are not frriends of friends or from another guild or whatever? How many people do not dedicate a lot of time to do this boss, that are joining your runs?

    Casual players can not complete this boss, it is just not possible!

    This thing here is Elite Stuff, and that is actually the point of this boss anyway - it is f***ing designed to be elite stuff for the endgame - so I dont know why you even call me stupid in the first place just for pointing out obvious truth (probably just because of that reason though).

    I am just pointing this out, as I noticed the feedback section and all these guides are full of wrong statements about a romantic community boss that everyone can do. This is not the case!
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2022 at 1:13 PM
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  13. Sen
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    Sen Donator

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    wait what else is the point of making friends i just use them to generate forum likes
     
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  14. Matt
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    I’d say I’m pretty casual, playing for over 9 years and still don’t have a level 200 character. Yet I was able to join a VL run and even managed to obtain a belt. I don’t even have many friends in-game either. So you don’t need to be an elite player, nor have a lot of friends. I would suggest just simply joining a guild that is interested in killing the boss. Or if you have a guild, you can try to partner up with another guild to do the boss.
     
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  15. frozenrain
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    frozenrain Well-Known Member

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    This is not true at all.
    I'm pretty new to this game, played about 3 months. My gear is dogshit, I have 34 cgs and a 130 ST.
    I still found many opportunities provided to me to run Von Leon, "elite" runs or not. And though I settled on groups that I was friendly with most, there were MANY opportunities to join casual runs if you were actively looking, especially when it first released, and I was.

    [P.S. shoutout to Heartbleed for trying to organize a non-discord/forum run purely by in-game recruiting]

    Are most of the people in these runs way more richer and "elite" than me? Sure. But I also know there are some who participate who are in my tier of gameplay, and we are welcomed all the same.

    Casual players absolutely have the opportunity to run and clear Von Leon. You just need to do a little networking.

    Also, from my little experience and knowledge it seems fairly evident that Von Leon is a meso sink, not a money making activity, is it not...?
     
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  16. frozenrain
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    frozenrain Well-Known Member

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    Oh sorry for double posting but I did have an actual feedback regarding Von Leon.

    Last run, as a shitty dps bucc in a pro dps party I received approximately 18% exp at level 179, which is somewhere in the range of 100m.

    It occurs to me that due to the nature of multiparty bossing that this number can be wildly variant. One run I was in a straggler party with only bishops, and received like 0.5% exp, as they dealt no damage. It seems probable also that bishops receive no exp at all, if they're not in a party / in a bishop party.

    In other words, this seems demonstrative of even more NLstory.

    Proposal: remove Von Leon death exp and make the "defeat Von Leon" quest repeatable, which gives a fixed amount of exp for each runner, so the 0 damage bishop receives the same exp as the 10k NL.
     
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  17. Zancks
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    Zancks Game Balancer

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    Some information we’ve decide to give out during the ingame feedback session and we don’t wanna keep from the players who couldn’t attend it:
    • Demon Gargolyes Hardskin duration was 15 seconds during the initial release and is 8 seconds now
    • The untradeables Von Leon can drop currently are
      • 2~4 belts
      • 2~4 parchments
      • 2 medallions
      • 4~6 5k nx cards
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2022 at 4:03 PM
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  18. xDarkomantis
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    Make Von Leon drop Super Transformation 30.

    Why?:

    - Leon turns into big Lion, so matches with bigger Transformation
    - A book people can sell for splits :) (player love money)
     

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