Drops transparency and shadow nerfs

Discussion in 'Denied' started by Donn1e, Oct 26, 2021.

  1. Donn1e
    Online

    Donn1e Donator

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2020
    Messages:
    511
    Likes Received:
    2,160
    Gender:
    Female
    IGN:
    Donn1e
    Level:
    200
    Guild:
    Wiggle
    There are 2 things I wanted to talk about.

    1. I think at this point showing the drop % of every item will do the server no harm, it will give players a better idea where to invest their time.
    What I mean by that is a command that shows what a specific mob/boss drops and at what %.
    This is already implemented in other servers and I enjoyed this feature a lot.

    2. Shadow nerfs should not be a thing, why mess with your players like this?
    More specifically, miracle scrolls should not have been nerfed from 100% to 90% (?) to 60%-70% (?) without a proper announcement.
    Why do that secretly?

    These things shouldn't be a secret, some transparency will be very healthy for the server in my opinion.
     
    Tail, Aestel, D R E V M ヅ and 25 others like this.
  2. Geyforlife
    Offline

    Geyforlife Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2017
    Messages:
    1,149
    Likes Received:
    2,472
    Country Flag:
    IGN:
    Geybrian
    Level:
    o7
    Guild:
    USSR
    congratulations to all the people who finished their auf helmets miracle 10% to the moon
     
    Aestel, Memester, Joez and 12 others like this.
  3. Relmy
    Offline

    Relmy Donator

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,787
    Likes Received:
    2,568
    Gender:
    Male
    IGN:
    Relmy
    Level:
    200
    Guild:
    Rogue
    Oh god, thank you for bringing this up, i have been anoyed by the shadow nerf on miracle scroll since update 73, at some point i tought it may be reduced due the adition of chairs and was unintended, i just dont want to believe that reducing the % rate of miracle scrolls is the way they tought will be the best to "nerf" the auf haven circlet(wich btw, does not need to be nerfed IMO, but thats off topic), either way seems like a bad desiction if it was intended, or needs a fix if it wasnt.

    On regards to the ideas:

    1.-Im not 100% against showing the drops of mobs/bosses, but it kinda takes away a bit of monster book utility isnt it?, on regards to show the % rate of those drops(either on MB or a comand), have both cons and pros, but in this suggestion you could make a solid case on favor.....

    2.-Yes, and a BIG FKN YES, 100% agree, shadow nerfs, especially in a simple game like this one... and even worse on 2021, should never be a thing, you really think that the same guys that do complicated math formulas to choose between skills combos or what to use between "X" or "Y" items to increase their dmg, will not note a 10-20- or 30% reduction on an item drop rate? Comon. Bad luck cannot be an answer on this topic btw.

    If this is a bug, it should be fixed quickly, if it was intended but unanounced to avoid discussions, threads and drama, let me tell you it was an awful move. At least with me and my friends this topic has been discused b4, and if we didnt say something is just bcs either w didnt want to deal with that or dont like to visit the forums as often anymore, things like this gonna end in losing confidence in staff procedures.

    Thanks for take the bullet @Donn1e
     
    Tail, Aestel, Daisies and 3 others like this.
  4. Joong
    Offline

    Joong Developer

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2013
    Messages:
    1,398
    Likes Received:
    4,082
    About 2, we’ve never secretly nerfed rates for as long as I’ve been here, as far as I’m aware. It must either be a mistake or bug (an unintentional change) or an illusion on the player end. The only instances of changed rates I can think of are to seasonal event item collectibles’ droprates, which were well known in the community and, I think, don’t really fit into the category of nerfs you are talking about.
     
    Aestel, Dasha, Kenny and 1 other person like this.
  5. Donn1e
    Online

    Donn1e Donator

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2020
    Messages:
    511
    Likes Received:
    2,160
    Gender:
    Female
    IGN:
    Donn1e
    Level:
    200
    Guild:
    Wiggle
    Sorry, but I'm a little confused.
    Miracle drop rate used to be 100% for a very long time, it was a guaranteed drop and I clearly remember the first dry runs starting to happen a few months back (without any announcement).
    How can this be an illusion? If it's unintentional I can understand, but it's clearly not an illusion on our end.
     
    ^-^, KittehIshMad, Solsticio and 2 others like this.
  6. special呆
    Offline

    special呆 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2018
    Messages:
    109
    Likes Received:
    38
    Gender:
    Male
    Country Flag:
    IGN:
    lovelove10
    Level:
    181
    Miracle scroll drop rate is not 100% since I go auf -.-'
     
    Tail, nostonk, Dasha and 4 others like this.
  7. Joong
    Offline

    Joong Developer

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2013
    Messages:
    1,398
    Likes Received:
    4,082
    If it wasn't announced in a patch note, it's definitely unintentional. As I don't keep all the droprates in my mind I simply listed the possible explanations, and wanted to dispel the idea that things are secretly nerfed! An admin has to look into this matter, and I've prompted them to do so.
     
  8. MaiAh
    Offline

    MaiAh Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2017
    Messages:
    313
    Likes Received:
    796
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Serbia
    Country Flag:
    IGN:
    MaiAh
    Level:
    199
    Guild:
    Labyrinths
    auf scroll was never 100% (but ye it was high like evry other run )
    i think with change of auf helm drop up to 3 made auf scrolls and other things buged or nerfed with lowr drop rate at least that what it feels like and as i can see other notice it same

    HT got simular "nerf" feel when they changed the drops more towards mid because players could not see the drops at corners well ( this can be revrted now i guess as we got ~setting itempickupnotification on )

    i don't think even the drop nerf on "seasonal event item collectibles" was ever mentioned (although i kinda understand some of them and the reason why such nerf is needed)
    but is not fair evry year to get worse and worse and we find it hard way (after hours/many runs that is worse then before or that we need to run with more mules...)
    last year cake,clown & snowman were so drop nerfed and HP increased that after a week or so people stop going and the rest were smega for att help at ch1 and 2
    just like now with clown once players are done with ring they stop going to clown (and they are not missing much of the transform pots and longer runs ~f3)

    same with CNY (wish tickets and red envelopes) last year mostly mass mule farmers could get them and i guess this year it will get even more nerfed again and more mule needed as mule farmers progress extremely fast compared to last year
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
    nutleafcity likes this.
  9. Matt
    Offline

    Matt Administrator

    Joined:
    May 8, 2013
    Messages:
    12,504
    Likes Received:
    16,924
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Country Flag:
    IGN:
    Matt
    Level:
    N/A
    Guild:
    Staff
    1) I don't believe exact drop rates of items should be publicly available, it should be up to the players to determine what mobs drop certain items and the best mobs for a droprate of an item, and players can share their knowledge with the community if they wish. It has been this way for the past 8 years and I don't think there is any reason why this should be changed now. The monster book drop list is also an intentional tool which can be used to help estimate the rates of items since the drops are ordered by their drop rate chance, and access to the lists is essentially part of the reward of collecting the monster book cards.

    2) As mentioned previously, we do not, and have not altered any droprates without announcement - with exception to seasonal event drops which can sometimes have slightly different drop rates year by year. I'm not sure when you believe the rate of miracle scrolls were changed, but there are posts on the forum going back as far as January 2020 that the drop rate was not 100%.

    Edit: We also increased the droprate of the scroll, and mentioned so in Update 65. I've checked the database query that was used in this update and can confirm the drop rate is still the same as was set back then.
     
    Aestel, MaiAh, nicky and 4 others like this.
  10. Donn1e
    Online

    Donn1e Donator

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2020
    Messages:
    511
    Likes Received:
    2,160
    Gender:
    Female
    IGN:
    Donn1e
    Level:
    200
    Guild:
    Wiggle
    Ok then, i see a lot of people comment on the 100% droprate thing so I'll try to make things clearer.

    1. Before the 5%->10% change the drop rate was very low, not even remotely close to 100%. At this point there were only 2-3 squads on the server even running the boss.

    2. After the change (update 65), some more people started running, including myself. There were still less than 10 parties running daily.
    At this point the droprate FELT like 100% for a few months, dry runs were quite literally unheard of across all parties.

    3. Months later, the boss gained a lot of popularity and and SOME dry runs started to appear, the information I gathered from both my runs and my friends' runs showed the droprate was standing at around 90%
    At this point, could it be that the droprate was always around 90% and not enough people were running to test it? Possibly, not likely.

    4. Fast forward to 1-2 months ago, a ton of complaints about droprate being nerfed started to rise, people claimed to only have a 60-70% droprate.
    For myself, my droprate was around 70% this month.

    My points are:
    - You won't find a single player in this server who ran Auf constantly since update 65 who would tell you the drop rate was not changed.
    - The comment you showed from @FuminoAya aka "Dima" was when the drop rate was laughable and the scroll itself was 5%, it's completely irrelevant.
    - I never missed my Auf run for over a year and a half now, I've literally been running everyday so I'm not making these things up - atleast give players like me some credibility.

    Could it all be an illusion? probably not.
    The reason I think we need more transparency on drops is so we can stop speculate - lots of players decide to invest a large amount of time and effort in running these bosses daily, we atleast deserve the knowledge.
    I don't think your reasoning of "it's been working fine so there's no reason to change it" is good at all.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
    Aestel, ilovebacon, Glenn93 and 5 others like this.
  11. Dave Deviluke
    Offline

    Dave Deviluke Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2017
    Messages:
    5,424
    Likes Received:
    4,429
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    MapleRoyals Discord
    Country Flag:
    IGN:
    Islander
    Level:
    50
    Guild:
    Shroomies
    Would like to hear feedback from other players as well, need at least 10 or 20 more players for a large enough sample size since this issue is about probability
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
  12. CreamGoddess
    Offline

    CreamGoddess Donator

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2018
    Messages:
    410
    Likes Received:
    1,215
    Gender:
    Female
    Country Flag:
    IGN:
    CreamGoddess
    Level:
    200
    Guild:
    Rogue
    I don't know who exactly I could help, but based on a video that I made like 7 months ago, I did 10 auf runs with my friends and got these results:
    [​IMG]
    8/10 10% and 2 chaos in 10 runs
    I can't show the video cause daziunda removed, but I still have access on mini player :D and I felt that auf 10% drop rate is really low now.
     
    Aestel, MaiAh, DickDann and 9 others like this.
  13. Kethoe
    Offline

    Kethoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Messages:
    763
    Likes Received:
    2,843
    Gender:
    Male
    Country Flag:
    IGN:
    DripBrew
    Level:
    200
    Guild:
    Freaky
    TL; DR
    My Results (Mid April 2021 to Mid-late July 2021):
    42/50
    84%



    As I'm not actively running Auf as much I was before, here's some snippets of the data from my 50 solos between late April to mid-late July (when Auf was reworked, did a few solos after that)

    upload_2021-10-26_12-37-24.png upload_2021-10-26_12-37-59.png upload_2021-10-26_12-38-16.png upload_2021-10-26_12-38-28.png

    The "-"s and empty spaces are days that I didn't run and there's that one fateful failed run.

    CS drop rate was 5/50, so 10%.
    EP drop rate was 1/50, so 2%. (I know I was just unlucky as hell with these damn EPs - V1 treated me much better f3)

    *Worth noting that around 10-12 of these runs were during the anniversary bonus drop rate event where it was usually around a 15% boosted drop rate.

    Edit: I stopped keeping track as I started to Auf less and switched to duos, but anecdotally, I can attest that it does feel like the Auf 10% drop rate slightly decreased after the rework, when chair and 2-3 helms was added to the drop table. It certainly feels overall that there are more dry runs.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
    Aestel, nutleafcity, DickDann and 8 others like this.
  14. Joong
    Offline

    Joong Developer

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2013
    Messages:
    1,398
    Likes Received:
    4,082
    The idea is that letting players themselves discover the paths of optimal returns adds depth and longevity to the game. It's a problem if people don't believe Staff when they state that drop rates haven't been changed. But if that kind of trust doesn't exist, what difference would a written number make? To be clear: the drop rates haven't changed since Update 65.
     
    Aestel, christie97, Gert and 6 others like this.
  15. Donn1e
    Online

    Donn1e Donator

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2020
    Messages:
    511
    Likes Received:
    2,160
    Gender:
    Female
    IGN:
    Donn1e
    Level:
    200
    Guild:
    Wiggle
    Things DO feel significantly different tho, and this is coming not just from me, many players decided to simply stop running Auf since the last update.
    Could there be an indirect nerf or any other drop changes that affected this?
    About trust, how can you expect us to have any? Last lunar new year event was very much nerfed and we were told by staff that "being unlucky is not a bug".
    It feels like you are a little bit disconnected from what the situation is actually like in the server.

    On the one hand, Matt says:
    But on the other hand, you deny that same knowledge we gather.

    What's the solution to this? More transparency.
    I agree with that statement, but I do not agree that revealing drop precentages will harm this in any way.
    Yes, it will give us more tools to figure out what's better quicker, but it will also enable us to give you better feedback and balance the server.
     
    CreamGoddess and ^-^ like this.
  16. Fli
    Offline

    Fli Donator

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2019
    Messages:
    188
    Likes Received:
    192
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    International
    I almost always support admin's reply, but, sorry dear Matt this time even you are telling the truth I am not going to be convinced, I guess nor the OP is. What's the point saying something like "oh because it has been years good so nothing need to be changed now"? I feel those words are driving people away and doing nothing else. Isn't it faster just moving this thread to denied section if drop rate issue got no space to discuss?

    As a player completed all major bosses' card, I'd like to say the drop table is not of valuable reference at all. Is the drop table linked to database and sorted by drop rate exactly? How will you convince players yeah element pierce earrings got higher rate than those 60% scrolls?
    00.png

    Even our favorite library which is probably the most trusted info from official, some people including me can confirm it's not 100% accurate, how do I believe the monster book will? and in the meantime seeing some event items still showed in?
    01.png
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
    benkrong, CreamGoddess, ^-^ and 2 others like this.
  17. Matt
    Offline

    Matt Administrator

    Joined:
    May 8, 2013
    Messages:
    12,504
    Likes Received:
    16,924
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Country Flag:
    IGN:
    Matt
    Level:
    N/A
    Guild:
    Staff
    What else can we do but deny your knowledge when you state things like we have nerfed the drop rate from 100% to 90%, this is simply not a true statement and we will obviously want to clarify that we have never changed the droprate of the item. Yes the droprate is quite high, but it has never been 100%. It makes sense for players to possibly get the scroll 10, 20, 30 or even 40+ runs in a row if they are lucky. But at the same time it's obviously possible that you could go multiple runs in a row without it dropping. Nothing regarding drop rate of the scroll has been changed since Update 65.

    I'm not sure I understand how revealing the exact drop rate of items will be a solution to players not believing that rates are not being tampered with.

    I don't see any compelling reasons to reveal the drop rates for items, and as Joel has mentioned, not revealing exact drop rates adds to the longevity of the game encouraging players to figure things out on their own or as a community. I personally cannot think of any other MMO which reveals the exact droprates of items, or even gives an official list of monster drops, most of them depend on community created databases and estimations of drop rates.

    The thread was not immediately moved to denied as we are happy for discussion on this topic to continue, so that we can try to answer any questions players might have and to give a chance for other players to give their input.

    Yes, the drops shown in the monster book are generated directly from the database and ordered by drop chance, however generating the list needs to be done manually and isn't an up-to-date replication of the database drops - As you can see in your second image. The drops for that particular monster were simply generated after certain seasonal event ETC's were added to the mob, and this issue should be reported as a bug so that we can re-generate the drop list for that mob.

    The reason why it can seem like 60% scrolls drop more frequently than the Element Pierce is simply the amount of scrolls available to drop; If for example the Element Pierce is 5% and the 60% scrolls are 2%, you are much more likely to have a 60% scroll (or even multiple 60% scrolls) drop and no Element Pierce drop. It would be better to compare a particular 60% scroll from that list to the Element Pierce earrings if you want to properly try to get a sample size to then understand the drop rate difference.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
    Aestel, christie97, Fli and 9 others like this.
  18. Kenny
    Offline

    Kenny Developer

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2018
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    2,204
    Country Flag:
    IGN:
    xNightyx
    Level:
    200
    There was never a so-called shadow nerf. Just in case there is an unintentional bug happening, I took the liberty to test the drop rate myself just now. Out of the 371 samples, the drop rate is aligned with the game code. I hope this debunks the false speculation
     
    christie97, Fli, GriZ and 8 others like this.
  19. Donn1e
    Online

    Donn1e Donator

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2020
    Messages:
    511
    Likes Received:
    2,160
    Gender:
    Female
    IGN:
    Donn1e
    Level:
    200
    Guild:
    Wiggle
    I'm glad you tested this.
    I was voicing a concern of many regular Auf runners, and to be fair I still find it very hard to believe that scrolls drop as often as update 65 release (for reasons I mentioned above, there's literally no reason for me to make any of this up).
    However, I can't argue with what you guys say and I have no choice left but giving it another month or two and keep testing, maybe it was just a huge statistical anomaly.

    My point about transparency still stands tho.
     
    ^-^ likes this.
  20. Matt
    Offline

    Matt Administrator

    Joined:
    May 8, 2013
    Messages:
    12,504
    Likes Received:
    16,924
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Country Flag:
    IGN:
    Matt
    Level:
    N/A
    Guild:
    Staff
    We have considered the proposal to reveal drop rates and decided that we won't be doing it. And if players feel like the drop rate of the miracle scroll is too low, they are welcome to make a feedback thread about that.
     
    azuma, Geyforlife and yann like this.

Share This Page