Current Class Balance

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by CupOfJoe, Nov 25, 2021.

  1. CupOfJoe
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    CupOfJoe Well-Known Member

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    Hi GMs,

    Just wanted to give you all a shoutout for how good the current class balance is right now. It is fantastic to see that every attacker class' strengths have multiple endgame places to shine. It encourages me to try to play more classes. Keep up the good work!

    Hero: elite multi-target DPS
    DrK: elite multi-target DPS, HB
    Pally: single target DPS, total crash
    Shad: multi-target DPS, survivability, smoke, haste
    NL: elite single target DPS, mobility, haste
    BM: SE, single target DPS
    MM: SE, multi-target DPS
    Bucc: multi-target DPS, single target DPS, SI, TL
    Sair: elite single target DPS, mobility

    (Next step, balance arch mages pls :))
     
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  2. ImVeryJelly
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    ImVeryJelly Donator

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    Tbh, if threaten (once fixed) improves Good enough DPS, I’d rather they remove total crash and let weapon cancel be the real weapon cancel. Then update the ai on weapon cancel such that if too much physical damage is received, bosses will weapon cancel the fk out of you, to the point where bringing 1-2 geared mages as main dps (it’ll keep track of magic dmg received, frequency of being hit and ratio of physic dmg/magic dmg received, so you can’t bring some random mage mules) will lower the total run time than 6 physical attackers. … but that’s just me.
     
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  3. OneHashim
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    OneHashim Donator

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    MM and Hero need some work. I wouldn't say those classes are in a good spot.
     
  4. CupOfJoe
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    CupOfJoe Well-Known Member

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    Being a complete custom skill, a certain degree of unease will always remain around total crash, no matter how much we get used to it. Interesting ideas you present here.. Before more complex solution can be implemented, and though it's somewhat OP, I think it's a good solution to keep Pally relevant and desirable class.
     
  5. CupOfJoe
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    CupOfJoe Well-Known Member

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    I like where MM is right now. If I didn't already have a BM, and I wanted to start an archer, I would pick MM over BM because of recent changes:
    1. BM's hurricane alt-tab glitch patched. This used to be a huge (may I say unfair) advantage over MM and other classes
    2. Release of LHC and a strong 4th job mobbing skill, Piercing Arrow. MM not only provides SE here, but generates a formidable multitarget DPS.
    3. Arrow attack buff. This bring MM closer to the damage of other classes.
    In addition, personally, I love the look of crossbows and Pyrope Crossbow is my favourite weapon in game, and their relative low cost is another bonus.

    I think hero is also at a good spot. They are #1 in terms of 3- or 4-target DPS, thus highly desirable at CWK, LHC, and does very well at Zak and HT. They may not have the utility compared to DrK (with HB) but the ease of play is a fair trade off, especially since the recent patch where ACA can no longer be dispelled.
     
  6. Wonderstruck
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    Wonderstruck Donator

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    How could you miss out blind! I love bossing with mm because its kinda increasing the whole party dps by reducing the knockbacks.
     
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  7. FireHeart
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    FireHeart Donator

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    Hero is fun before 200 and levels fast with exp from Zak, Shao, and LHC but after sucks. Hero is kinda a dead class after lvl 200. What can a Hero do at lvl 200? Basically only trio/quad CWKPQ. HT is so long and prequest/mules/att pots so rarely break even mesos wise unless trio/quad which is a lot of work and also requires a good PC and focus to run 2 or more clients. Soooo boring that I had to quit it even when I was a Hero main for years.


    In comparison, at lvl 200 NL, Bucc, BM, or Shad are superior because they can do Neo Tokyo which is where all the end game is. Also these are better to farm untradeable etc drops from bosses such as auf helm, ele pierced shogun earrings, krex ring, toad drop, etc.
     
  8. Ayane
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    Ayane Well-Known Member

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    I kinda find all classes boring after 200 to be honest.

    With the addition of LHC and the Drk/Paladin buffs I think warriors are very balanced right now.
    Drk has really good multi target DPS and a pretty good single target DPS too at the cost of being much harder to play and a lot more squishy, and it's also more reliant on buffs like SI/SE.
    Hero is kinda like a bit weaker Drk but it's also much easier to play and a lot more tanky without zerk, and it's less reliant on buffs.
    While Paladin has the best DPS out of them (unless you get very high range and hit cap a lot) and some good utility while still being fairly easy to play , at the cost of a much weaker multi target damage.

    I think the class that needs buffs the most right now is FP mage, I/L can at least do reindeers and ob but F/P only got the old maps like Petri and no endgame content.
     
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  9. FireHeart
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    FireHeart Donator

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    Well... from what I've seen if someone was to keep playing Royals for a long time (multiple lvl 200s), then there's two ways to play imo.

    1. Try to collect all lvl 200 chars and enjoy the leveling process, in which LHC is good for helping warriors to help them level and earn mesos faster.
    2. Just get a NL or Bucc or whatever is the best end game class to lvl 200 and try to super fund it with godly gear, Auf Helm, chaos untradeables, etc.

    If you try to do the second method with a Hero it's probably going to really suck after lvl 200 since you simply don't scale as well as NL or Bucc in the single target end game mesos making bosses. So I think NL or Bucc is a lot better. Though, to be fair I don't know the average mesos rate of LHC.
     
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  10. onekeystory
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    After main a hero and spent quite amount of meso in my hero's gear, it is just a cwk/zak arm mule after all.

    Well, Drk has a higher DPS output than hero with same gear (due to Sharp Eyes, SE buff Drk >> than Hero), and Drk offers hb which may be still relavent today. The only downside in this comparason is that hero can participate auf haven while drk not. But practically speaking, who will even recruit a hero in auf haven.

    For HT runs, nobody wants a hero because it needs SI (again, hiring a SI over NL will further reduce party DPS unless CR is not a mule and using Claymore). Hero has been replaced by shadower, which has 4 target hitting and smoke screen to start with tail. And shadower can hit both Head A and Head B at the same time, while hero is just a completely dead weight on left side. Any bishop mule can simply clear the weapon defend on HT.

    I see no reason why Hero is needed in late game content now, unless a buff is made on hero.

    Potential buff:
    • Increase bandish's attacking range to hit Head A and Head B at the same time. Or at least a 50% chance of hitting Head B (without losing 100% hit rate on Head A)
    • Make armor crash a party buff to ignore boss monsters's defence by (5-10%), it will not be an issue of mule because party slots are limited, make it only relavent when hero is in party.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2021
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  11. RadiantRay
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    RadiantRay Well-Known Member

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    Hero can already hit both A and B in HT if you attack B instead, it's not 100% uptime on A but it's better than just attacking only A and missing completely when he ducks down. As for NT, just fix the iframes on Auf and the class is fine.

    If you really want to buff Hero then just make rage stack with attack pots. I know they keep saying it's not possible but if you could make it happen somehow it would be huge for the class. The whole class identity is buffing the groups attack power, kind of silly that it just simply doesn't work in most situations.
     
  12. CupOfJoe
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    CupOfJoe Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your comments! Some additional thoughts:

    I think many classes can be considered boring in the sense that they hold down 1 button, where other classes requires more challenge and attention (e.g. Drk, Sair). While some see this as boring, others consider this ease of play. Perhaps we don't quite agree on the definition of "endgame". I would consider HT and CWK to be late-to-end game as well. Specifically regarding Neo Tokyo, Heros are quite good at grinding through the mobs. If we are strictly going by Auf Haven = endgame, then it would be quite a challenge to balance all classes specifically for this one expedition.

    Perhaps it's the different fractions of players we each interact with, but I think the majority of the players on Royals have not yet reached the stage where they have multiple 200s. From someone who does not have a single level 200 character and enjoys playing different classes and the challenge of multi-clienting. I can see all the classes I play have strengths and weaknesses and I take maximum advantage of this flexibility. You are right that NL and Bucc are highly desirable in single target end game bosses--as single target is their strength.

    I haven't gotten there quite yet but I worry I might agree with you when the time comes! I'm thankful most classes are quite well balanced so it will allow me to try out classes I have not played before and not worry about being excluded from most parties.

    I've always been under the impression that although theoretically in perfect conditions, with extremely high-end gear and gelt, DrK out damages Hero by 2%, but practically with average or above average gear (of equal funding level), and the need to constantly adjust HP to Berserk, practically Heros have a slight edge. I concede I may be wrong about this, since I don't have data to back it up.
    I disagree that heros need SI. Stonetooth remains the most popular hero end game sword and while SI is a nice damage boost of 9.5%, it is by no means required. On the other hand, Drks are much more reliant on SI as their damage is boosted by 14.8%. Shadowers are obviously highly sought after because of their strengths in HT in addition to multi-target DPS, but Hero/Drk offer the best multi-target damage. On the left side of HT, hero can hit 3 targets from the lower platform (before wings die) and hit both Heads A and B from 2nd-to-top platform, when Head A is in its natural position and not dipped down (as @RadiantRay points out and from my own experience playing hero in HT). Armor crash is a bonus, as players maining an attacker and muling Bishop may have other things to attend to.
    As mentioned in an earlier comment, Heros are highly sought after for CWK and LHC (of course, you can consider these as late game and not truly endgame, depending on your definition).
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2021
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  13. CupOfJoe
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    That would be Heros' dream! I think 12 atk stackable bonus is a bit too OP, to the point where parties almost have to have a hero for the buff itself. If it were technically possible, something like 3-5 attack would be more reasonable, where it's a nice boost to the party's damage, but does not break the game.
     
  14. onekeystory
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    Nope, its definately not 2%, it is something more significant (With Sharp Eyes). Here is two sample conparason of hero/drk with semi-end game gear. Drk is about 7.4% more DPS than hero, and this data is valid because I have tested it in my own pirate server before. (with same gear and just different weapon, about 8% difference in DPS).


    This is not recorded from Mapleroyals.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Hero and Drk both need SI while shad does not, that is my point.

    Best killing order would be CWAB because wing is stopping range attackers from attacking. Hero does not hit 3 parts consistently, and once wings are down, Hero is complelely useless by its poor DPS compared to range attacker. Sorry I am harsh to say, but it is the truth.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2021
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  15. Jooon
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    Agreed on hero's poor dps, but Hero's multiclienting capability to triple attack alongside with 2 other attackers, its potential is way superior than Drk. That itself makes DrK quite a horrible class.

    I'll trade 'About 8% difference in DPS' for the multiclienting or simply QOL anyday.

    Just speculations, when Von Leon does comes out with DR & Potion Cooldown..
    Dark knights gonna cry, real hard. Meanwhile hero will be the top tier class in that content.
    -
    Yes DrK got buffed, but Hero was never nerfed, I do think this class is in a good spot for 2022 as it is.

    Just implement Von Leon with a bunch of super tanky mobs & DR right?
    Yeah Bucc > Hero > Shad > MM > Mages, RIP Drk, RIP NL
    upload_2021-11-28_19-26-12.png
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2021
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  16. FireHeart
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    FireHeart Donator

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    Imo the Drk to Hero is similar argument as Corsair to NL but about 1/3 the magnitude of DPS difference (~8% vs ~30%). Weighs it in favor of Hero for people who value QoL.

    Regarding multclienting attackers, for probably 98%+ of players they aren't going to ever get to the point of multiclient attackers. So that's a good point that gives Hero more potential but only for a sliver of the playerbase and not exactly the intended gameplay mechanic which offers a balancing challenge of balancing across different target groups.

    Interesting and probably accurate speculation bout Von Leon. Seems reasonable.

    Seems bucc is super class in all content and easy wash rn.
     
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  17. CreamGoddess
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    yee boi, I support this idea, when total crash become a party buff I was wondering why not armor crash become a party buff too. Anyway my dead hero become a def mule for dunas v2 now.
     
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  18. MokaMokaMoka
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    Didn't they nerf bowmasters just because of multi-clienting? Seems like the philosophy of the team is to patch multi-client attackers out of the game.
     

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