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Buff Chain Lightning / Paralyze

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by Tsue, Feb 13, 2020.

  1. Tsue
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    Tsue Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I think that I am not doing a good job of explaining. In the nl example, I was trying to explain that it is not actually the same buff in reverse, even though it appears like that. The difference is that I am evaluating buffs in two aspects -- mesos farm rate and exp farm rate. For nl to receive genesis would increase the rate at which nls can farm these two aspects. However, if mages received a single target damage buff, their meso and exp farm rates would stay the same, as standard mage ult farming is superior in both aspects to bossing. Bossing is purely inferior in both aspects for mage, it is only superior in a subjective aspect (fun / socialization / etc). I feel this change buffs the viability of the "fun / social / etc" aspect while not impacting the meso and exp aspects.

    Bossing dominates the end game, both socially and mechanically. The aging of the server (as well as perhaps the removal of the fm button) killed old style tot grinding parties. I believe that recognition of the importance of bossing contributed to the Update #59 buffs for bad weapon attack classes, even though these classes could still be played for fun. And again, I am not pushing for mages to be equal to other classes -- just to 60% to 70% of non nl/sair classes.

    In the end, this will not impact my own decision. I played bucc long before it received any buffs, and I already have an 11k hp (edit: sorry if mentioning this comes off as arrogant, but I mentioned the hp to show that I have committed heavily to bossing with mage regardless of if we get a buff or not) ice lightning that I boss with. I just want to be a little less of a dead weight when I go bossing with friends.
     
  2. FuminoAya
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    I think what she means is this..

    What would be the worst if you buff Archmages single target DPS? Them choosing to decrease their meso income/time for the fun chance of going to bosses with friends or randoms?

    While @Evan is right in his archetypes argument (meaning that every class has a special benefit/advantage/disadvantage) i'd say that any type of warrior, shadower, or buccs can very well farm good mesos, on say the temple of time maps, sure not as good as Archmages, but it's solid.
    Just like Archmages could, if buffed, very well do Bosses, sure not as good as Attacker classes, but not awfully terrible either to the point where boss parties don't even bother to reply to mages anymore in whispers when recruiting via super megaphones. While i agree that every class should have it's specific role where it shines, it should not be the case to straightup make or keep them terrible on the other side. make them versatile not overpowered. and that's exactly what @Tsue is proposing.

    i mean @Tsue made the DPS calculation clear. 1850 magic and only 102k DPS with paralyze if im not mistaken. that is, compared to a Sair or NL only about 25% DPS in single target with equal funding.

    Atleast bring it up to 80% single target DPS of non Sair/NL since people enjoy playing their one character often times more and having that special bond or dedication for that character, regardless of what the dmg is.
    Having 200k-210k DPS with 1850 magic using paralyze and slightly less with chain lightning won't change the meta of the game, it's still #NLStory, but people might choose a Archmage over x,y if they could enjoy bossing content too, and not live their entire character lifes at Ulu1, @Aeronautics.

    People played Shadowers (including me), Pallys and Buccs prior to the buffs aswell. Now atleast they just don't get straight up denied for bossruns because of choosing to play their favourite class.

    @Jooon

    Even if a Archmage would hit 8 Zakum Arms with 199,999dmg each arm (that requires insane equipment by the way) it'd be (8*199,999)/3seconds cast time it'd only equal to 533k Dmg/second.
    that's straight up terrible.
    Any warrior with equal funding would be at 300k*3 or *4 Arms hitting far higher DPS numbers (1. due to raw dmg and 2. cast times+ they can be buffed by SI/SE for example) for multi target dmg output.
    And it's even worse for HT due less targets available.

    And that's okay since they excel at farming, but Archmages single target DPS is virtually non-existant and i think that's why dedicated players playing their Mages, such as @Tsue or @Shiratsuyu or even you @Jooon ,if you were playing a AM, might be quite happy about this particular buff. Even if Shira does not know that she wants the buff, it'd be an improvement for the game rather than a game-breaking change.
    so buffing AMages single target DPS to 200k~ while attacker classes (excluding NL&Sair) with equal funding would be at 250k+ seems like a reasonable thing to do, for the above mentioned reasons..
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
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  3. Ayane
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    Ayane Well-Known Member

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    I quit my fp mage cause it was too boring to only do petri all day, the class is pretty much useless in bosses

    Once you get to a point where you 1 hit Petri there is no point to level anymore because high lvl will just make leech worse and you don't really boss anyway

    You have no goal that motivates you to level and in addition most mage skills are useless so you don't really feel any progress

    Basically most people use mages as mules to leech but few people actually main them due to how weak they are. If you buffed them you'd actually get a reason to level up and get stronger, instead of being a mule. You can also make some of the useless skills (like ice/fire demon) more viable
     
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  4. magico
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    magico Well-Known Member

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    TL; DR LOOOOOL

    ~f2 Just give an option to change to either 4th job bossing type mage(with STRONGER CL/Paralyze and without blizzard/meteor skill) OR 4th job farming type mage(with only Blizzard/Meteor). ~f2
    ~f2 Now everybody can be happy ~f2
     
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  5. Jooon
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    And it won't be nostalgic, now everyone isn't happy :oops:
     
  6. Nes
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    Nostalgia isn't about the specific skill dmg %s...or are Paladins not nostalgic here because their charges are stronger and bosses have elemental weaknesses?
     
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  7. Jooon
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    It aint nostalgic to have 2 routes of mages, where @magico suggested to be required a permanent choice of DPS route
    (Eg. Totally without Bliz/Meteor or with a 30s CD on bliz/Meteor for paralyze/CL dps?) or another choice of farming route which is what we have now.
    I suppose that the choice is unreversable and is made perhaps during 4th job advancement.

    Feels out of place.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
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  8. Nes
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    I'm slightly biased since I actually had the same idea a few years ago, just figure it isn't feasible politically or technically. But breaking it down more precisely, whose "nostalgia" is impacted by these changes?

    Anybody who isn't playing a mage would just see skills with different %s during their boss runs. People who actually play mages would be in two camps, farmers and "new mages." The farmers would only see an option they didn't see before during job advancement, which while potentially jarring, wouldn't have an impact on their gameplay or playstyle. And I"m guessing people who make the choice to play the new mage wouldn't have a nostalgia based complaint...if anything, it's "more" nostalgic in my mind to be able to use the entire kit of 4th job mage skills viably.

    (I remember tracking the development of 4th job classes while they were being tested on KMS Tespia, and ultimate spamming was not a playstyle people used back then since NLC pots weren't a thing yet...so there were all types of speculation on how f/p could mix their skills with mist, and how the i/l kit could work as well...)

    Note: This is a purely theoretical argument, I'm not suggesting that this change be made, just discussing the psychological impact.
     
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  9. Tsue
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    Tsue Well-Known Member

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    I think it is also very important to consider simplicity for the staff and intuitiveness of the implementation to the users. This is why I suggested a simple numbers change (to minimize staff time spent on both consideration and implementation). I also think that splitting each mage class into two more classes is pretty non-intuitive for players, and definitely conflicts with the nostalgia argument a lot more than a numbers change. It is also harder to balance, and creates differences in meso / exp abilities. There would also likely be headaches about people saying they chose the wrong option / need to switch subclasses etc.
     
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  10. magico
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    magico Well-Known Member

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    ~f2 After "writing" so many guides, i guess u must have forgotten the use of "everyone" and "someone" ~f2. But okay !!! not nostalgic and feeling not right now HAHAHA !! ~f2

    ~f2 Okay !!! Sure sure you correct subclass bad, changing numbers is good, staff busy busy ! Again with nostalgic LOOOOLLL, so improving CL/Para and making mages more powerful in bosses is nostalgic now ? ~f2 but i'm out too ! Just giving somewhat "fresh" ideas ~f2

    ~f2 Please carry on ~f2 me dont write long essay english no good ~f2
     
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  11. LichWiz
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    Last time i did a solo zak run with my ironman mage, it took me 6 bloody hours!

    any buff is welcomed at this point cause this solo run BROKE ME...
    (honestly, i can barely drive myself to play on her after that zak run).
     
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  12. Dabsta
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    The fact that you can solo Zak as a mage at all is already hilariously broken lmao. if anything this class needs a nerf
     
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  13. iEatEmoKids
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    Y'all ever feel like this forum is stuck in a permanent time loop or is that just me?

    [​IMG]

    That being said, in light of staff actually introducing single target mage buffs largely against the voice of the community the last time this suggestion was brought up, I feel the need to make an actually serious response.

    There has been an increasing pattern in the past year or so where people have submitted just downright nonsensical suggestion threads. And I don't mean to say that your argument makes no sense or your line of reasoning is wrong. What I do mean to say is that at the end of the day, your suggestion simply doesn't fulfill any particular needs of this server. I mention this because suggestions such as these often lead to half-assed compromises that fail to actually resolve the core issue at stake and/or instead end up introducing half-baked changes that make this server even more inaccessible than it already is. Lounge button? Fast tickets? HP quests? All of these not only destroy our notions of "nostalgia" that we apparently hold so dearly in our hearts, but they only serve to add barriers to what should be naturally intuitive gameplay. I'm personally not one to advocate for the nostalgia camp, but even I must admit that this server is bloated with unnecessary changes and augmentations that defeat the inherent simplicity of old school MapleStory.

    And at the end of the day, you're probably right. These buffs to arch mage single target damage will probably not shake up the bossing meta to any significant extent. It certainly didn't last time. But that's exactly the point, isn't it? Why request changes for the sake of requesting changes? At what point do we stop and ask ourselves, "What critical need, function, or purpose will this suggestion serve?" And more importantly, we really need to ask ourselves, "Is this particular suggestion the most efficient and effective way of accomplishing said need, function, or purpose?" So I'm going to take this time to gently suggest everyone to maybe consider taking a few extra seconds to think about what it really is that our server needs and what it really is that will best accomplish those needs before making another asinine feedback thread. And to be fair, there have been some great initiatives by community members that introduced truly meaningful changes to the server, such as the Zakum Jump Quest alternative that accommodates colorblind people. And then there have been not-so-great initiatives that were less meaningful (to put it lightly), such as asking for a buff to the Holy Symbol duration just for the sake of having a longer Holy Symbol duration. Your reasons have yet to convincingly show why your suggestion should be considered the former instead of the latter.

    I also feel the need to point out that no one has really ever said to themselves, "Well I have an arch mage and they're not great at bossing, so I guess I'll go ahead and never utilize literally any other class in the game that is viable for bossing and just never boss with my friends instead!" I really want to emphasize that there's something to be said for the principle of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

    Anyways, this generation of players seem a lot less pressed about arch mage buffs than the generation two years ago. And as someone who hardly plays this game, I'm not going to pretend like I actually care about balance changes lol.
     
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  14. Tsue
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    Tsue Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the well written response. I believe that you make three primary points:
    1. What critical need, function, or purpose will this suggestion serve?
      1. Due to the aging of the server, grinding parties are dead. Bossing has become the primary social area of gameplay for many people. The purpose of this suggestion is to make people slightly likelier to bring mages into bosses. For example, a godly mage does similar single target dps to an 16x NL (on apple) with 450-550 base int. People would likely prefer that their friend doesn't keep bringing their ~450 int nl to bosses when said friend has other chars available, even if they know that their friend really likes playing night lord.
      2. More importantly, I believe that this question is a bit misdirected. A change does not need to be critical to be beneficial. In your examples, you note that suggestions often lead to "half-assed compromises", such as in the case of the lounge button / fast travel tickets / hp quests. I believe that this does not apply to this thread as I am not only suggesting "buff mage", but I am suggesting the particular implementation to do so. Worries about a convoluted compromise would be relevant in previous threads where the exact changes were either not well defined or very spread out (such as changing multiple skills).
    2. Is this particular suggestion the most efficient and effective way of accomplishing said need, function, or purpose?
      1. I think that your opposition is more based around question 1. I explain why I am advocating this method of change in particular in the op and subsequent posts, so I won't clog this post with it. Let me know if you feel I should expand on this point however.
    3. Many changes add barriers to what should be naturally intuitive gameplay / defeat the inherent simplicity of old school MapleStory.
      1. Changing skill %s is one of the only changes that does not change the intuitive gameplay feel? I think this point also falls under the nostalgia argument, where just because something is status quo does not mean it cannot be improved. The staff obviously agreed with this to the extent to implement the previously mentioned update #59 buffs.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2020
  15. Comrade
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    I'm fully in support of buffs to mage bossing potential. I think that the future of this server is to slowly evolve and fix issues that were present in old MapleStory, as it was far from the perfect game. "Nostalgia" shouldn't mean that we can't fix issues and improve quality of life for the game, it just needs to be done in a way that maintains the spirit of old MapleStory.

    I don't think its radical to suggest that the player base for this server is of higher age than that of the version the server is based on at the time. This has resulted in more calculated and optimized game play, evident by the DPS charts and range threads. Since the single-target difference between AMs and any other class is so clear now, not very many players would pick an AM to do anything outside of farming, which is a shame since all the end-game content revolves around bossing.

    If we're arguing for the sake of nostalgia, it actually makes sense to me to include buffs to AMs. I remember bossing with a few AM's back in old original Maplestory, as it was much less realistic to have two or more bossing capable characters back then. It makes sense to me that a player with only an AM should be able to meaningfully contribute to boss runs with friends or others. That person shouldn't have to make and train an alt to have any shot at bossing. Not everyone has the time to dedicate to this, especially if their alt requires an additional time investment of HP washing.

    I myself am more interested in seeing some other changes rather than just % increases. I'm interested in seeing something like ice/fire eater getting some use by conferring elemental weaknesses to mobs for a short duration or number of attacks, possibly adding some synergy with paladins or other mages. But maybe I'm just too radical. (Also sounds like something that could prove too difficult to add to the code)

    I like the idea of having some class variety to mix things up a bit for boss runs and keep them interesting. The longer I play this server the more it feels like its approaching the 1 bishop, 1 SE mule, and 2-4 NLs party comp singularity.
     
  16. iEatEmoKids
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    Oh believe me all those half-assed compromises we ended up with originally included very "particular implementation(s) to do so" by the community as well. ;)

    As for the rest of your response, all in all my main issue is that I still find your original reasons fundamentally unconvincing to introduce this type of change. I definitely understand the point you're trying to make--I just fail to see how allowing arch mages to boss would be the most effective means of improving the bossing social scene when the obvious solution is to just make another character. I also want to re-emphasize that my position isn't one that advocates for maintaining nostalgia or the status quo, but one that advocates minimizing unnecessary implementations. That being said, you've laid your points out very thoughtfully so I do hope you find what you're looking for LOL.
     
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  17. Tsue
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    Tsue Well-Known Member

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    I certainly agree that this change would not have a massive affect on the bossing social scene overall. This change is oriented towards improving accessibility to the bossing social scene for the subset of people that main mage. To me, a fundamental part of an MMO game is developing an attachment to a character and over a long duration playing the game on that particular character. It mainly feels bad when said character can be soft locked from boss runs.

    I also believe there are niche pragmatic benefits to this change such as people possibly returning to the game to invest time on making bossing mages and creating further apr / cs / gear demand, as well as allowing new players that only have a mage to boss with friends (as all new players are told to create a mage to fund their attacker). However, these points are outside of the scope of my original argument, so I will just leave them here as side notes.
     
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  18. JacobSCA
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    Some would tell you Paladins aren't nostalgic because they were buffed.
     
  19. PurePoisonXD
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    Wahh I am still remembered, I feel loved. :love: But nah, that dude joined forums 2015, I didn't even know about MapleRoyals in 2015 lmao.

    Just double the lines of Paralyze and Chain Lightning, ez pz. Y'all overthink things wayyyyy to much lol.
     
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  20. MeekMallard
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    simply stated, the lower dps and such comes at the cost of superior mobbing utility and crazy climbing potential. Mages are not perfectly balanced, but its good enough. Ive been a mage main since 2006 and tbh i have never had any complaints. the skill set fits the role. money and exp comes in waves. its fine.

    EDIT: also consider the coding. Even "simple" altercations takes weeks to test and implement, if not longer. This isnt just something the community can agree on and it be done. Itll have an impact, and a successful server like maple royals isnt gonna just throw caution to the wind and do so without testing, and overwhelming support.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020 at 3:33 AM

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